J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,842 
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 14, 2022 22:56:41 GMT
"Grimsby and Cleethorps need to be moved to East Anglia" !
North Norfolk (detatched)?
I find the idea that northern Lincolnshire fits better with the East of England than it does with Yorkshire laughable. It's hard to deny that southern Lincolnshire is very similar to Norfolk or the north of Cambridgeshire, but the review area based on East Anglia is far more extensive than that! I realise Grimbarians don't like the idea of being lumped in with Hull, but they have far more in common with the city than they do with Basildon or Watford... However, it is a strong valid argument that removing the artificial barrier between northern Lincolnshire and the rest of Lincolnshire for drawing constituency boundaries would remove a lot of problems. |
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Post by bjornhattan on Feb 14, 2022 23:05:18 GMT
I find the idea that northern Lincolnshire fits better with the East of England than it does with Yorkshire laughable. It's hard to deny that southern Lincolnshire is very similar to Norfolk or the north of Cambridgeshire, but the review area based on East Anglia is far more extensive than that! I realise Grimbarians don't like the idea of being lumped in with Hull, but they have far more in common with the city than they do with Basildon or Watford... However, it is a strong valid argument that removing the artificial barrier between northern Lincolnshire and the rest of Lincolnshire for drawing constituency boundaries would remove a lot of problems. I'm not denying that, and I'd go further - removing the boundary between southern Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire/Norfolk might significantly improve constituencies in and around Peterborough (though I'm not familiar with the area so can't say for certain). But the claim that Lincolnshire (both north and south of the wolds) has no affinity with its current region yet would fit perfectly into an enlarged East Anglia isn't right. |
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,915
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Post by YL on Feb 15, 2022 8:06:48 GMT
I find the idea that northern Lincolnshire fits better with the East of England than it does with Yorkshire laughable. It's hard to deny that southern Lincolnshire is very similar to Norfolk or the north of Cambridgeshire, but the review area based on East Anglia is far more extensive than that! I realise Grimbarians don't like the idea of being lumped in with Hull, but they have far more in common with the city than they do with Basildon or Watford... However, it is a strong valid argument that removing the artificial barrier between northern Lincolnshire and the rest of Lincolnshire for drawing constituency boundaries would remove a lot of problems. Indeed the attempt at separating Grimsby and Cleethorpes I mentioned yesterday shows some of the problems, and in spite of the tin foil hattery in 63114 I'd agree that it would have been better to include those two unitaries in the same region as the rest of Lincs. As well as going on about gerrymandering they accuse the BCE of deliberately choosing a controversial name for a constituency to deflect attention from its boundaries. |
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Post by islington on Feb 16, 2022 14:02:04 GMT
However, it is a strong valid argument that removing the artificial barrier between northern Lincolnshire and the rest of Lincolnshire for drawing constituency boundaries would remove a lot of problems. Indeed the attempt at separating Grimsby and Cleethorpes I mentioned yesterday shows some of the problems, and in spite of the tin foil hattery in 63114 I'd agree that it would have been better to include those two unitaries in the same region as the rest of Lincs. As well as going on about gerrymandering they accuse the BCE of deliberately choosing a controversial name for a constituency to deflect attention from its boundaries. I'm not saying that's what the BCE have done but it wouldn't be a bad ploy.
Then they can announce that the boundary will stay the same but the name will be changed to Brigg, and give themselves a pat on the back for being responsive to the public.
(That's what I'd do, anyway.)
On the other side of the Humber, is the general feeling that in Hull and ERY the six seats are OK? There are a lot of representations on the BCE site about not putting Hedon into Hull E.
To the west of Hull I thought Willerby and S Hunsley wards might have looked better the other way round, which would give you Hull W & Haltemprice 74321, Goole & Cottingham 73314.
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,915
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Post by YL on Feb 16, 2022 15:59:21 GMT
On the other side of the Humber, is the general feeling that in Hull and ERY the six seats are OK? There are a lot of representations on the BCE site about not putting Hedon into Hull E. To the west of Hull I thought Willerby and S Hunsley wards might have looked better the other way round, which would give you Hull W & Haltemprice 74321, Goole & Cottingham 73314.
South Hunsley and SW Holderness going into Hull seats are both controversial. Labour suggest something else for South Hunsley and the Tories for SW Holderness. Personally I favour three Hull seats covering the City plus the five "Haltemprice" wards (Hessle to Cottingham North). My original submission had them all together in one seat, but I think the approach put forward by the Lib Dems of putting Cottingham in Hull North (& Cottingham) and the other three in Hull West & Hessle has a lot going for it in spite of the double crossing of the boundary. Both versions require the splitting of Wolds Weighton ward, but if you can't split a ward made up of 28 separate parishes which wards can you split? |
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Post by islington on Feb 16, 2022 17:37:22 GMT
On the other side of the Humber, is the general feeling that in Hull and ERY the six seats are OK? There are a lot of representations on the BCE site about not putting Hedon into Hull E. To the west of Hull I thought Willerby and S Hunsley wards might have looked better the other way round, which would give you Hull W & Haltemprice 74321, Goole & Cottingham 73314.
South Hunsley and SW Holderness going into Hull seats are both controversial. Labour suggest something else for South Hunsley and the Tories for SW Holderness. Personally I favour three Hull seats covering the City plus the five "Haltemprice" wards (Hessle to Cottingham North). My original submission had them all together in one seat, but I think the approach put forward by the Lib Dems of putting Cottingham in Hull North (& Cottingham) and the other three in Hull West & Hessle has a lot going for it in spite of the double crossing of the boundary. Both versions require the splitting of Wolds Weighton ward, but if you can't split a ward made up of 28 separate parishes which wards can you split?Well, one answer to that question is "none, if there's a reasonable non-split alternative". But that raises the question of whether the BCE's proposal is reasonable (subject to swapping of Willerby and S Hunsley). Anyway, on the subject of non-split arrangements, I came up with this for Sheffield and Rotherham.  I realize everyone seems happy with the BCE single-split proposal in Sheffield so this is only a bit of fun, but I don't recall seeing this arrangement upthread and if ward-splitting were not permitted I don't think I'd be unhappy with it. Everything is in range, and while there are some infelicities (Dore in Heeley) there are no obvious horror-shows. Only one seat crosses the city boundary (and in a logical place). If you like you can do a rotation of Park, Birley and Richmond wards, which gets rid of the Handsworth concavity but overall doesn't look like an improvement to my non-Sheffield eye.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,842
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 16, 2022 20:51:29 GMT
South Hunsley and SW Holderness going into Hull seats are both controversial. Labour suggest something else for South Hunsley and the Tories for SW Holderness. Personally I favour three Hull seats covering the City plus the five "Haltemprice" wards (Hessle to Cottingham North). My original submission had them all together in one seat, but I think the approach put forward by the Lib Dems of putting Cottingham in Hull North (& Cottingham) and the other three in Hull West & Hessle has a lot going for it in spite of the double crossing of the boundary. Both versions require the splitting of Wolds Weighton ward, but if you can't split a ward made up of 28 separate parishes which wards can you split?Well, one answer to that question is "none, if there's a reasonable non-split alternative". But that raises the question of whether the BCE's proposal is reasonable (subject to swapping of Willerby and S Hunsley). Anyway, on the subject of non-split arrangements, I came up with this for Sheffield and Rotherham. I realize everyone seems happy with the BCE single-split proposal in Sheffield so this is only a bit of fun, but I don't recall seeing this arrangement upthread and if ward-splitting were not permitted I don't think I'd be unhappy with it. Everything is in range, and while there are some infelicities (Dore in Heeley) there are no obvious horror-shows. Only one seat crosses the city boundary (and in a logical place). If you like you can do a rotation of Park, Birley and Richmond wards, which gets rid of the Handsworth concavity but overall doesn't look like an improvement to my non-Sheffield eye.
Eugh! Destroy it with fire! |
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Post by islington on Feb 16, 2022 22:04:43 GMT
Well, one answer to that question is "none, if there's a reasonable non-split alternative". But that raises the question of whether the BCE's proposal is reasonable (subject to swapping of Willerby and S Hunsley). Anyway, on the subject of non-split arrangements, I came up with this for Sheffield and Rotherham. I realize everyone seems happy with the BCE single-split proposal in Sheffield so this is only a bit of fun, but I don't recall seeing this arrangement upthread and if ward-splitting were not permitted I don't think I'd be unhappy with it. Everything is in range, and while there are some infelicities (Dore in Heeley) there are no obvious horror-shows. Only one seat crosses the city boundary (and in a logical place). If you like you can do a rotation of Park, Birley and Richmond wards, which gets rid of the Handsworth concavity but overall doesn't look like an improvement to my non-Sheffield eye.
Eugh! Destroy it with fire! Right, I'll put you down as 'wavering', shall I? Actually I've been playing further and found lots of ways of doing it. Sheffield + the three Rotherham wards = 433009 = 5.90. There are 28 wards in Sheffield and the Rotherham wards are about half the size so we have 29.5 wards in play. We need one four-ward seat which has to include Broomhill and three other biggish wards; and after that it's just a matter of grouping them in fives (or 5.5 in the case of the seat including the Rotherham element). There's a little more to it than that because in the south and east of the city the wards are on the small side so you have to make sure your groupings of five are above the minimum, but even so there are a lot of legal solutions without a ward split. For instance, if you're strongly of the view that Dore ought not to be separated from Ecclesall, this might tickle your fancy (again, all in range): 
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,842
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 17, 2022 1:38:23 GMT
Eugh! Destroy it with fire! Right, I'll put you down as 'wavering', shall I? ... For instance, if you're strongly of the view that Dore ought not to be separated from Ecclesall, this might tickle your fancy (again, all in range):
I'm strongly of the opinion that Sheffield seats shouldn't spew out into Rotherham. Treat the Rother Valley and the M1 as an impenatrable barrier, and come back again. |
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,915
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Post by YL on Feb 17, 2022 8:32:10 GMT
Well, here's the only non-split plan for the Sheffield area which I've seen actually submitted to the BCE. It's due to whoever it is in Preston who submits spreadsheets to the BCE with no further explanation (ref. 79391):  I think it's quite impressive to have a Brightside & Hillsborough constituency which also contains Manor Castle and Darnall. Elsewhere in the region the most striking feature of this proposal is a Selby, Goole & Axholme seat covering the Isle of Axholme, the East Riding south of the Ouse, and roughly the southern half of Selby district. Most of the rest of Selby district goes into a "Howden" constituency which stretches from Willerby & Kirk Ella to Sherburn-in-Elmet. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Feb 17, 2022 8:39:05 GMT
Sheffield is generally happy with the proposals, so we try and change them. 😂
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,112
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Post by ilerda on Feb 17, 2022 9:19:42 GMT
Sheffield is the perfect example of how one nice (albeit perhaps technically avoidable) ward split can make the whole world a much happier place.
The idea that having a "Penistone and Firth Park" or "Sheffield Hallam and Hillsborough" is somehow preferable I find quite amusing.
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YL
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Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,915
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Post by YL on Feb 17, 2022 10:14:35 GMT
To be fair I think islington was just playing. The Preston spreadsheet submission has to be assumed to be serious, though. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,842
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 17, 2022 12:31:26 GMT
Sheffield is the perfect example of how one nice (albeit perhaps technically avoidable) ward split can make the whole world a much happier place. This is why if you are happy with proposals, you should still write in and say so. |
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Post by islington on Feb 18, 2022 11:33:00 GMT
Yes, I was playing (the clue was in the words 'this is only a bit of fun') and - for the avoidance of doubt - I still am. I've no intention of making any representations in Y&H. But even if I'm playing, it's play with a purpose because it's always helpful to explore what is possible and I'm actually not displeased with this as a non-split plan for the whole region.
Everything else is as the BCE has it except that west of Hull I'd swap S Hunsley and Willerby wards.  Barnsley - 73669. Batley and Morley - 75926. Restoring a link that existed 1918-1983.
Bradford North - 72776.
Bradford South and Cleckheaton - 72926. Bradford West - 71859.
Calder Valley - 70588. Castleford and Pontefract - 72751.
Dewsbury - 70302. Doncaster West - 73507. Goole and Cottingham - 73314.
Halifax - 76965. Harrogate and Knaresborough - 75800. Hemsworth - 76848.
Huddersfield East and Brighouse - 71630.
Huddersfield West and Colne Valley - 76298. Hull West and Haltemprice - 74321.
Keighley - 72954. The current seat unchanged, but see comment on Shipley. Leeds Central - 73922. Leeds East - 69792.
Leeds North - 71194. I'm not at all happy with this one.
Leeds North West - 71729. Leeds South East and Elmet - 76485.
Leeds South West - 70007.
Leeds West and Pudsey - 70270.
Maltby - 72572. I'm quite pleased with this one. Normanton - 75236. Internal connectivity is terrible, but no worse than Shipley. You can rectify the problem by swapping Altofts in and Featherstone out, but that divides Castleford town.
Penistone - 74237. Don't the Penistone wards look happier here than linked with Sheffield?
Rotherham - 72928. Selby - 76802.
Sheffield Attercliffe - 70895.
Sheffield Beighton and Kiveton Park - 75036. Other names are possible. I acknowledge that J.G.Harston knows the area far better than I do and I hear the message that this sort of seat should be avoided. But the alternative is to cross Sheffield's boundary to the north, and while I agree this has precedent on its side, I struggle to convince myself that Penistone has more in common with north Sheffield than with Holme Valley, Denby Dale, &c. And the Rother, as David Cameron would say, is hardly the Amazon; moreover, I'd point out that the Rother Valley seat as originally created in 1918 straddled the river in exactly this area. Sheffield Brightside - 70325.
Sheffield Ecclesall - 72947. More or less the successor to Heeley. Keeps Dore and Ecclesall together. Sheffield Hallam - 69737. Can I get away with calling it that? Only 13 above the minimum. Sheffield Hillsborough - 74069. Can exchange Fulwood and Crookes with the previous seat if preferred. Shipley - 74095. I've left the current seat as is, but its internal comms would be a lot better if it exchanged Wharfedale and Worth Valley wards with Keighley. Skipton and Ripon - 76266.
Vale of York - 72313.
Wakefield - 73437. All bona fide Wakefield wards included, hurrah.
Wentworth - 72642. Wetherby - 75277. York - 75261.
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,112
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Post by ilerda on Feb 18, 2022 13:55:29 GMT
As a Conservative I like the idea of a Penistone and Holmfirth seat a lot, but knowing the area it's definitely the case that Penistone has much closer ties to 'North Sheffield' (it's actually a place, at least in the minds of the locals) than it does with the Holme Valley. Don't be fooled by the fact that it's rural and Tory-inclined.
There's a reason traditional borders in Africa are lines in the sand as opposed to following rivers. Sometimes it's the empty space that really divides people.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,842
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 18, 2022 14:01:01 GMT
As a Conservative I like the idea of a Penistone and Holmfirth seat a lot, but knowing the area it's definitely the case that Penistone has much closer ties to 'North Sheffield' (it's actually a place, at least in the minds of the locals) than it does with the Holme Valley. Don't be fooled by the fact that it's rural and Tory-inclined. There's a reason traditional borders in Africa are lines in the sand as opposed to following rivers. Sometimes it's the empty space that really divides people. And a "Penistone" constituency covering close to the same area existed for most of the 20th century. |
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,915
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Post by YL on Mar 12, 2022 8:31:29 GMT
At the hearing, the Green Party proposed splitting Lindley ward in Kirklees with polling districts LD02 and LD05 remaining in Colne Valley and the rest transferring to Huddersfield; this allows Crosland Moor & Netherton to stay in Colne Valley.
They also supported the Lib Dem proposals in Hull and the East Riding and for the Selby area.
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Post by edgbaston on Mar 12, 2022 13:11:28 GMT
At the hearing, the Green Party proposed splitting Lindley ward in Kirklees with polling districts LD02 and LD05 remaining in Colne Valley and the rest transferring to Huddersfield; this allows Crosland Moor & Netherton to stay in Colne Valley. They also supported the Lib Dem proposals in Hull and the East Riding and for the Selby area. That was my submission too! Fingers crossed. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,842
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Post by J.G.Harston on Mar 13, 2022 1:54:31 GMT
I've just finished watching the recordings. It looks like the vast majority of presentations were regarding Leeds, with the implication that people were happy with the rest of Yorkshire. That makes it important that if people do agree with existing recommendations, they write to say so, to mitigate any impact if the Commission needs to nibble at propsed seats to take account of proposals that are objected to.
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