cibwr
Plaid Cymru
Posts: 3,598 
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Post by cibwr on Oct 12, 2014 12:45:14 GMT
I think Nathan Gill is a politician because he stood for election previously to being an MEP and because he worked as an assistant (not a cleaner or other non political post) to the previous MEP.
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cefin
Non-Aligned
Posts: 906
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Post by cefin on Oct 12, 2014 21:01:26 GMT
I think Nathan Gill is a politician because he stood for election previously to being an MEP and because he worked as an assistant (not a cleaner or other non political post) to the previous MEP.
I see......so an assistant who deals with casework and enquiries for help from the public is classed by yourself as a politician.
Presumably that would mean that you include secretaries who type up casework and replies to enquiries for help from the public as politicians also then?
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 13, 2014 8:35:19 GMT
I think all this demonstrates is that arguments about who is and isn't a politician are impossible to resolve. I don't think it much matters, because giving the fact that you don't do a job as your primary qualification says enough about somebody on its own.
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,818
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Post by john07 on Oct 13, 2014 10:27:31 GMT
I think Nathan Gill is a politician because he stood for election previously to being an MEP and because he worked as an assistant (not a cleaner or other non political post) to the previous MEP.
I see......so an assistant who deals with casework and enquiries for help from the public is classed by yourself as a politician.
Presumably that would mean that you include secretaries who type up casework and replies to enquiries for help from the public as politicians also then?
Let us say that none of the above constitute real jobs outside of the political bubble. The domination of Parliament by former SPADs and 'political advisers' is a major reason for the disconnect between the public and the political establishment. |
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
Posts: 3,598
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Post by cibwr on Oct 18, 2014 8:54:29 GMT
I think all this demonstrates is that arguments about who is and isn't a politician are impossible to resolve. I don't think it much matters, because giving the fact that you don't do a job as your primary qualification says enough about somebody on its own. You note that he ignores the fact the the Euro election was not his first election... I'd say he was a politician and claims not to be are bogus. |
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Harry Hayfield
Green
Cavalier Gentleman (as in 17th century Cavalier)
Posts: 2,922
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Post by Harry Hayfield on Oct 18, 2014 15:33:06 GMT
(Source: Wikipedia): A politician, political leader, or political figure (from Classical Greek πόλις, "polis") is a person who is involved in influencing public policy and decision making. This includes people who hold decision-making positions in government, and people who seek those positions, whether by means of election, inheritance, coup d'état, appointment, conquest, or other means. Politics is not limited to governance through public office. Political offices may also be held in corporations. In civil uprisings, politicians may be called freedom fighters. In media campaigns, politicians are often referred to as activists.
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,818
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Post by john07 on Oct 18, 2014 17:34:37 GMT
I suppose that anyone who contests an election or holds office within a political party is to some extent a politician. However I think the definition should relate to main occupation.
Thus anyone who is an MP, MEP, MSP, or Assembly member etc or a full-time elected councillor are politicians as are those who work for same in a political role.
I never considered myself a politician despite being, amongst other things Secretary of Stockport District Labour Party, a parliamentary candidate and an elected councillor. During this period I was variously working in professional consultancy, a full-time postgraduate student, and an academic.
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Oct 18, 2014 18:13:19 GMT
I think all this demonstrates is that arguments about who is and isn't a politician are impossible to resolve. I don't think it much matters, because giving the fact that you don't do a job as your primary qualification says enough about somebody on its own. You note that he ignores the fact the the Euro election was not his first election... I'd say he was a politician and claims not to be are bogus. I have stood for election on three occasions. If you think that makes me a politician I would respectfully suggest that you are bonkers. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,044
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 19, 2014 0:43:23 GMT
But aren't we all politicians of one sort or another on this site. No! Though this is one of the few forums on the net where us normals are in a minority. |
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Post by Penddu on Oct 19, 2014 2:01:32 GMT
The interesting thing that I read from these polls is how little the Plaid, Conservative & Green vote has moved since 2010 - almost static apart from statistical noise. while LD vote has collapsed and Labour has deteriorated steadily. Has the UKIP increase mopped up this spare vote or has there been a two stage shift - LD to Lab or Con, and Con to UKIP or is Labour losing votes directly to UKIP.....
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Oct 19, 2014 8:38:07 GMT
The interesting thing that I read from these polls is how little the Plaid, Conservative & Green vote has moved since 2010 - almost static apart from statistical noise. while LD vote has collapsed and Labour has deteriorated steadily. Has the UKIP increase mopped up this spare vote or has there been a two stage shift - LD to Lab or Con, and Con to UKIP or is Labour losing votes directly to UKIP..... Probably somewhere in between those two scenarios. |
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andrea
Non-Aligned
Posts: 7,806
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Post by andrea on Oct 19, 2014 8:57:04 GMT
The interesting thing that I read from these polls is how little the Plaid, Conservative & Green vote has moved since 2010 - almost static apart from statistical noise. while LD vote has collapsed and Labour has deteriorated steadily. Has the UKIP increase mopped up this spare vote or has there been a two stage shift - LD to Lab or Con, and Con to UKIP or is Labour losing votes directly to UKIP..... Labour current share is not down compared to their 2010 score. Labour is deteriorating compared to post 2010 polls. So there could be a third stage shift: who are the voters they are losing compared to 2011-12-13? Are they their 2010 voters but keeping the LD to Lab post coalition switchers, are they losing the recent switchers or a mix of them? |
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Post by Penddu on Dec 9, 2014 9:51:36 GMT
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Post by Penddu on Dec 9, 2014 10:28:19 GMT
One possible upset to the cosy Welsh polling is a rumour that Cymuned - a Welsh language and rural communities pressure group - might stand candidates on the list in North and Mid-west Wales seats. This could lead to split ticketing among Plaid supporters - and deliver at least 1 seat in each of the two regions.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 9, 2014 12:05:16 GMT
It's strange, and somewhat impressive, that Welsh Labour have consistently been the party of government but have never really suffered a serious downturn in their appeal to the electorate. Which, when you compare it to the recent travails of their Scottish counterparts, makes you wonder how it is that Welsh Labour manage to hold at bay the attrition that we so often see happen to governing parties. |
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Post by greenchristian on Dec 9, 2014 17:06:05 GMT
It's strange, and somewhat impressive, that Welsh Labour have consistently been the party of government but have never really suffered a serious downturn in their appeal to the electorate. Which, when you compare it to the recent travails of their Scottish counterparts, makes you wonder how it is that Welsh Labour manage to hold at bay the attrition that we so often see happen to governing parties. The Welsh are never going to vote Tory, the LibDems took themselves out of the game by going into the Coalition, and Plaid Cymru will never be able to generate the same breadth of support that the SNP do in Scotland, because their support is based around language and culture - a language that most people in Wales don't actually speak and which has long been a divisive political issue. So to some extent Labour almost win by default. Personally I'm disappointed that we've never quite been able to grind out an overall majority in the Assembly. You're also helped by the relative lack of scrutiny for the Assembly - there's very little in the way of distinctively Welsh media, which means that the Welsh government receives significantly less attention and scrutiny than it could - especially in the border areas that look more towards England than towards Cardiff. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 17:45:45 GMT
One possible upset to the cosy Welsh polling is a rumour that Cymuned - a Welsh language and rural communities pressure group - might stand candidates on the list in North and Mid-west Wales seats. This could lead to split ticketing among Plaid supporters - and deliver at least 1 seat in each of the two regions. Labour 36% (-2%) Conservative 23% (no change) UKIP 18% (+1%) Plaid Cymru 11% (no change) Liberal Democrats 5% (-1%) Greens 5% (no change) Assembly - Constituency Labour 35% (-1%) Conservative 22% (+1%) Plaid Cymru 19% (no change) UKIP 12% (no change) Liberal Democrats 6% (no change) Greens 5% (+1%) Assembly - List
Labour 31% (no change) Conservative 20% (-1%) Plaid Cymru 19% (+3%) UKIP 15% (-2%) Greens 7% (no change) Liberal Democrats 6% (+1%) Seat totalsLabour: 28 (-2): 26 constituency AMs, 2 list AMs Conservative: 12 (-2); 6 constituency AMs, 6 list AMs Plaid Cymru: 10 (-1); 6 constituency AMs, 4 list AMs UKIP: 7 (+7): all list AMs Liberal Democrats: 2 (-3); 2 constituency AMs Greens 1 (+1): a list AM (in Mid and West Wales) "first time ever a Welsh Political Barometer poll projects the Greens to win a seat in the Assembly." |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 17:50:35 GMT
It's strange, and somewhat impressive, that Welsh Labour have consistently been the party of government but have never really suffered a serious downturn in their appeal to the electorate. Which, when you compare it to the recent travails of their Scottish counterparts, makes you wonder how it is that Welsh Labour manage to hold at bay the attrition that we so often see happen to governing parties. , the LibDems took themselves out of the game by going into the Coalition, and Plaid Cymru will never be able to generate the same breadth of support that the SNP do in Scotland, because their support is based around language and culture - a language that most people in Wales don't actually speak and which has long been a divisive political issue. So to some extent Labour almost win by default. Personally I'm disappointed that we've never quite been able to grind out an overall majority in the Assembly. As a general rule you're right, but the Conservative Party did manage to get a plurality of votes in Wales at the 2009 European Parliament elections. |
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Post by thirdchill on Dec 9, 2014 17:52:18 GMT
It's strange, and somewhat impressive, that Welsh Labour have consistently been the party of government but have never really suffered a serious downturn in their appeal to the electorate. Which, when you compare it to the recent travails of their Scottish counterparts, makes you wonder how it is that Welsh Labour manage to hold at bay the attrition that we so often see happen to governing parties. The Welsh are never going to vote Tory, the LibDems took themselves out of the game by going into the Coalition, and Plaid Cymru will never be able to generate the same breadth of support that the SNP do in Scotland, because their support is based around language and culture - a language that most people in Wales don't actually speak and which has long been a divisive political issue. So to some extent Labour almost win by default. Personally I'm disappointed that we've never quite been able to grind out an overall majority in the Assembly. If the Welsh assembly results mirrored general election results then you may well have carved out a majority. The difference largely being down to Plaid doing better in Assembly than Westminster elections. The conservatives seem to have a fairly solid block of support, which may not move that much up or down in the next few months. Certainly the effect of UKIP on the conservatives in Wales seems to be less than in England. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 9, 2014 18:08:28 GMT
It definitely surprises me that no hard left party have really managed to get any traction in Wales.
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