|
|
Post by swanarcadian on Oct 30, 2020 17:48:09 GMT
104 votes in two days is quite impressive. Comparison with our 2016 poll at the time of posting: Biden (D) 71 +11 Trump (R) 13 +2 Hawkins (Green) 6 -4 Jorgensen (Libtn) 3 -13 |
|
|
|
Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 30, 2020 18:46:18 GMT
I'm not a fan. I'm worried about the future of the US. The polarisation and the formation of armed camps look eerily like the start of a slide into civil war. The US will be fine, we had a riot here in SC, it was grotesquely overplayed by the media and now the right wing. It was a few thugs from the wrong side of the tracks nicking clothes from the posh shops downtown, they rounded them up since. Having read many of your posts you don't have a good understanding of the US, I suspect your media inputs are rather unbalanced, you can't take UK perceptions and project them onto one of the most divided countries in the world, and it's always been that way it's not a recent thing. Your post on Trump being accepting of LGBTQ shows a lack of understanding, he may not have rolled back initiatives but, there is a perception he has not gone forward and in fact in very subtle ways he has moved the needle backwards with restrictive funding and other initiatives, sure, he hasn't created an anti-gay bill but, you don't do that here as it will alienate people you use the institutions to drive change. That applies equally to race relations. The US has had these militia camps since the 60's. Liberal CO has them all over the place, filled with right wing nutters who thing the bogie man is coming to take their guns away, the US is largely uninhabited, you can easily disappear off the grid in the US in ways you cant in Europe and nobody cares. If Trump wins there were be liberal tears and the next campaign starts, if Biden wins then in about a year his people will say he was never an appropriate President anyway. I will watch the results and view them through the prism of the reality show its become, with a beer or 7, its a results night after all. With all due respect, I don't really think you can pontificate in that way in an honest manner. Firstly, you can't possibly know what my media consumption is. Secondly, you are conflating the very different issues of gays and trans folks. As I have already said, they aren't the same and it is both homophobic and transphobic to do so. So, to describe "LGBTQ" in relation to Trump, as a broad concept, is dishonest, and shows a lack of understanding as to what LGBT Conservatism entails, and the division therein. Thirdly, I don't think anyone can understand the US, not even Americans do, and to throw that at me is just silly and hypocritical on your part. I study history and I made my observation based upon the past and seeing how, given the past is often cyclical, it tends to play out. In my research experience, once a country reaches where you are it doesn't end well, and more often than not, you will subsequently read about a civil war, dictatorship or a fracturing of the country. Personally, I also no longer consume much US traditional media, I find your traditional media absolutely reprehensible and close to seditious in its behaviour. I do in fact consume a lot of new media, mainly podcasts, and I listen to several centre right podcasts and, despite my criticisms of them yesterday, I must admit to listening a Vox podcast, and Bill Maher, who I've watched since I was a Socialist ten years ago. This is because I try and listen to a wide range of views on a number of things, including your country. I also know that your country has always been divided, particularly by geography, race and wealth. However, the scenes which the rest of us in the world outside the US, there is one despite what many Americans think, don't happen very often. The last comparable time ended with a wave of assassinations, and from the outside admittedly as I have committed the sin of not being American, I think the current situation is worse than that. For example, the voices demanding reparations for Blacks is growing louder in the Democratic Party, we haven't seen that before. What happens if the narrative starts to make itself into the mainstream? Are white Americans going to simply go along with that as they did civil rights in the sixties and seventies? On gay issues, yet I again I repeat I am referring to gay issues, not trans, as it isn't the same thing, he is very different to the bigoted views on gays which American politics produced until recently, in both parties. On race relations, I will never understand your country's obsession with race, the belief that so many white Americans have that they are innately superior because their skin darkens in the sun, or the black supremacist or African returnist views of so many African Americans. Indeed, many of my black friends here in the UK view Americans of both major racial camps with much contempt. Finally, I may not be some expert on the US, that's why I don't visit this thread often, that and it's takeover by a bizarre narrative, but I will continue to comment where I want, feel free to challenge it, but I will not simply be dissuaded from chipping in where I want. Overall, my view of the United States is mixed. I admire certain parts of the United States and it's history and psyche, such as Reagan and a commitment to personal freedom. That is a breath of fresh air when compared to the nagging, socialistic and semi authoritarian Presbyterian country I am from. However, on the other hand, I am deeply affronted by the selfishness of your countrymen, particularly over global climate change, the racist and cultish mantra of American exceptionalism, the moronic ignorance of history, and the tendency to wave a big foam finger in the air when you're certainly not number one - and never really were. In sum, it's a massive car crash, both repulsive and inspiring, and attacking me for not understanding it is simply a nonsense, because, ultimately, no one can. |
|
|
|
Post by railwaystand on Oct 30, 2020 19:01:54 GMT
The US will be fine, we had a riot here in SC, it was grotesquely overplayed by the media and now the right wing. It was a few thugs from the wrong side of the tracks nicking clothes from the posh shops downtown, they rounded them up since. Having read many of your posts you don't have a good understanding of the US, I suspect your media inputs are rather unbalanced, you can't take UK perceptions and project them onto one of the most divided countries in the world, and it's always been that way it's not a recent thing. Your post on Trump being accepting of LGBTQ shows a lack of understanding, he may not have rolled back initiatives but, there is a perception he has not gone forward and in fact in very subtle ways he has moved the needle backwards with restrictive funding and other initiatives, sure, he hasn't created an anti-gay bill but, you don't do that here as it will alienate people you use the institutions to drive change. That applies equally to race relations. The US has had these militia camps since the 60's. Liberal CO has them all over the place, filled with right wing nutters who thing the bogie man is coming to take their guns away, the US is largely uninhabited, you can easily disappear off the grid in the US in ways you cant in Europe and nobody cares. If Trump wins there were be liberal tears and the next campaign starts, if Biden wins then in about a year his people will say he was never an appropriate President anyway. I will watch the results and view them through the prism of the reality show its become, with a beer or 7, its a results night after all. With all due respect, I don't really think you can pontificate in that way in an honest manner. Firstly, you can't possibly know what my media consumption is. Secondly, you are conflating the very different issues of gays and trans folks. As I have already said, they aren't the same and it is both homophobic and transphobic to do so. So, to describe "LGBTQ" in relation to Trump, as a broad concept, is dishonest, and shows a lack of understanding as to what LGBT Conservatism entails, and the division therein. Thirdly, I don't think anyone can understand the US, not even Americans do, and to throw that at me is just silly and hypocritical on your part. I study history and I made my observation based upon the past and seeing how, given the past is often cyclical, it tends to play out. In my research experience, once a country reaches where you are it doesn't end well, and more often than not, you will subsequently read about a civil war, dictatorship or a fracturing of the country. Personally, I also no longer consume much US traditional media, I find your traditional media absolutely reprehensible and close to seditious in its behaviour. I do in fact consume a lot of new media, mainly podcasts, and I listen to several centre right podcasts and, despite my criticisms of them yesterday, I must admit to listening a Vox podcast, and Bill Maher, who I've watched since I was a Socialist ten years ago. This is because I try and listen to a wide range of views on a number of things, including your country. I also know that your country has always been divided, particularly by geography, race and wealth. However, the scenes which the rest of us in the world outside the US, there is one despite what many Americans think, don't happen very often. The last comparable time ended with a wave of assassinations, and from the outside admittedly as I have committed the sin of not being American, I think the current situation is worse than that. For example, the voices demanding reparations for Blacks is growing louder in the Democratic Party, we haven't seen that before. What happens if the narrative starts to make itself into the mainstream? Are white Americans going to simply go along with that as they did civil rights in the sixties and seventies? On gay issues, yet I again I repeat I am referring to gay issues, not trans, as it isn't the same thing, he is very different to the bigoted views on gays which American politics produced until recently, in both parties. On race relations, I will never understand your country's obsession with race, the belief that so many white Americans have that they are innately superior because their skin darkens in the sun, or the black supremacist or African returnist views of so many African Americans. Indeed, many of my black friends here in the UK view Americans of both major racial camps with much contempt. Finally, I may not be some expert on the US, that's why I don't visit this thread often, that and it's takeover by a bizarre narrative, but I will continue to comment where I want, feel free to challenge it, but I will not simply be dissuaded from chipping in where I want. Overall, my view of the United States is mixed. I admire certain parts of the United States and it's history and psyche, such as Reagan and a commitment to personal freedom. That is a breath of fresh air when compared to the nagging, socialistic and semi authoritarian Presbyterian country I am from. However, on the other hand, I am deeply affronted by the selfishness of your countrymen, particularly over global climate change, the racist and cultish mantra of American exceptionalism, the moronic ignorance of history, and the tendency to wave a big foam finger in the air when you're certainly not number one - and never really were. In sum, it's a massive car crash, both repulsive and inspiring, and attacking me for not understanding it is simply a nonsense, because, ultimately, no one can. I guess you didn't realize I am Scottish. Assumptions are always dangerous. |
|
|
|
Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 30, 2020 19:17:33 GMT
With all due respect, I don't really think you can pontificate in that way in an honest manner. Firstly, you can't possibly know what my media consumption is. Secondly, you are conflating the very different issues of gays and trans folks. As I have already said, they aren't the same and it is both homophobic and transphobic to do so. So, to describe "LGBTQ" in relation to Trump, as a broad concept, is dishonest, and shows a lack of understanding as to what LGBT Conservatism entails, and the division therein. Thirdly, I don't think anyone can understand the US, not even Americans do, and to throw that at me is just silly and hypocritical on your part. I study history and I made my observation based upon the past and seeing how, given the past is often cyclical, it tends to play out. In my research experience, once a country reaches where you are it doesn't end well, and more often than not, you will subsequently read about a civil war, dictatorship or a fracturing of the country. Personally, I also no longer consume much US traditional media, I find your traditional media absolutely reprehensible and close to seditious in its behaviour. I do in fact consume a lot of new media, mainly podcasts, and I listen to several centre right podcasts and, despite my criticisms of them yesterday, I must admit to listening a Vox podcast, and Bill Maher, who I've watched since I was a Socialist ten years ago. This is because I try and listen to a wide range of views on a number of things, including your country. I also know that your country has always been divided, particularly by geography, race and wealth. However, the scenes which the rest of us in the world outside the US, there is one despite what many Americans think, don't happen very often. The last comparable time ended with a wave of assassinations, and from the outside admittedly as I have committed the sin of not being American, I think the current situation is worse than that. For example, the voices demanding reparations for Blacks is growing louder in the Democratic Party, we haven't seen that before. What happens if the narrative starts to make itself into the mainstream? Are white Americans going to simply go along with that as they did civil rights in the sixties and seventies? On gay issues, yet I again I repeat I am referring to gay issues, not trans, as it isn't the same thing, he is very different to the bigoted views on gays which American politics produced until recently, in both parties. On race relations, I will never understand your country's obsession with race, the belief that so many white Americans have that they are innately superior because their skin darkens in the sun, or the black supremacist or African returnist views of so many African Americans. Indeed, many of my black friends here in the UK view Americans of both major racial camps with much contempt. Finally, I may not be some expert on the US, that's why I don't visit this thread often, that and it's takeover by a bizarre narrative, but I will continue to comment where I want, feel free to challenge it, but I will not simply be dissuaded from chipping in where I want. Overall, my view of the United States is mixed. I admire certain parts of the United States and it's history and psyche, such as Reagan and a commitment to personal freedom. That is a breath of fresh air when compared to the nagging, socialistic and semi authoritarian Presbyterian country I am from. However, on the other hand, I am deeply affronted by the selfishness of your countrymen, particularly over global climate change, the racist and cultish mantra of American exceptionalism, the moronic ignorance of history, and the tendency to wave a big foam finger in the air when you're certainly not number one - and never really were. In sum, it's a massive car crash, both repulsive and inspiring, and attacking me for not understanding it is simply a nonsense, because, ultimately, no one can. I guess you didn't realize I am Scottish. Assumptions are always dangerous. Then that just magnifies the points above. |
|
|
|
Post by yellowperil on Oct 30, 2020 20:45:41 GMT
Jorgenson then GOP ticket Whenever becomes President, I hope he dies peacefully in his sleep of natural causes very soon after inauguration. So really you want Harris? |
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Oct 30, 2020 20:47:59 GMT
Identity politics. I had forgotten about abortion. I honestly find it frankly incredible, in that I give no credence to the concept, that any human being of decency can either 1/ be opposed to abortion in the case of rape or 2/ can support partial-birth abortion of a healthy fetus at full term these people really are evil. Under what circumstances would 2) happen? |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Oct 30, 2020 22:56:04 GMT
Identity politics. I had forgotten about abortion. I honestly find it frankly incredible, in that I give no credence to the concept, that any human being of decency can either 1/ be opposed to abortion in the case of rape or 2/ can support partial-birth abortion of a healthy fetus at full term these people really are evil. I don't think it follows at all. If a pro-lifer opposes abortion in the case of rape then they are opposing the killing of an innocent human being for a crime it did not commit. If someone believes the foetus is a human being in its own right who is entitled to the most basic human rights then it's difficult to justify abortion in any circumstance other than in defence of the life of the mother.
And whilst supporting partial-birth abortion of a healthy fetus at full term is abhorrent to our culture, there are plenty of cultures where it was considered perfectly acceptable to kill infants by exposure. I don't think you really view the ancient Greeks and Romans as cultures consisting entirely of evil people.
|
|
Izzyeviel
Lib Dem
I stayed up for Hartlepools
Posts: 3,279 
|
Post by Izzyeviel on Oct 31, 2020 0:19:05 GMT
For my part, I would be voting for Trump. The main reason is in relation to the coronavirus: Trump seems far more reluctant to restrict people's lives and destroy the economy. I clearly have concerns about Trump's quite negative attitude to the environment (although to be fair this attitude is far more common in the states) and I would therefore probably be picking more eco-friendly candidates in the down ballot races. That would very much depend on the candidate though. Greens for Trump is an angle I hadn't considered much, but why not! back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 31, 2020 0:22:33 GMT
Greens for Trump is an angle I hadn't considered much, but why not! back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. When I was active in the Stretford & Urmston Conservatives, canvassers regularly found Green-BNP waverers. Or even the odd BNP-LD waverer! |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Oct 31, 2020 0:26:22 GMT
Greens for Trump is an angle I hadn't considered much, but why not! back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. When I was active in the Stretford & Urmston Conservatives, canvassers regularly found Green-BNP waverers. Or even the odd BNP-LD waverer! This is less a case of conservative greens as it is the anti-establishment vote. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 31, 2020 0:30:33 GMT
back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. When I was active in the Stretford & Urmston Conservatives, canvassers regularly found Green-BNP waverers. Or even the odd BNP-LD waverer! This is less a case of conservative greens as it is the anti-establishment vote. Absolutely. It was just particularly odd because back then we had neither BNP nor Greens standing! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2020 0:34:54 GMT
Greens for Trump is an angle I hadn't considered much, but why not! back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Oct 31, 2020 0:53:04 GMT
This is less a case of conservative greens as it is the anti-establishment vote. Absolutely. It was just particularly odd because back then we had neither BNP nor Greens standing! You expected the average voter to know which parties were standing?  |
|
|
|
Post by relique on Oct 31, 2020 2:22:03 GMT
back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. When I was active in the Stretford & Urmston Conservatives, canvassers regularly found Green-BNP waverers. Or even the odd BNP-LD waverer! In France those kind of voters are heavily against vaccines, wi-fi and probably any advancement in technology since quite a long time. I don't think there is a french party more reactionary than the greens |
|
|
|
Post by London Lad on Oct 31, 2020 7:45:03 GMT
Jorgenson then GOP ticket Whenever becomes President, I hope he dies peacefully in his sleep of natural causes very soon after inauguration. I was listening to the Billy Joel song 'We didnt start the fire' yesterday and it triggered a memory of JFK dying and the how shocked and upset people were at the news (and this was in London) - now fast forward 50 odd years and we have 2 chancers who if either died nobody would really care and some would even be happy.
How times change.
|
|
|
|
Post by matureleft on Oct 31, 2020 8:20:05 GMT
Jorgenson then GOP ticket Whenever becomes President, I hope he dies peacefully in his sleep of natural causes very soon after inauguration. I was listening to the Billy Joel song 'We didnt start the fire' yesterday and it triggered a memory of JFK dying and the how shocked and upset people were at the news (and this was in London) - now fast forward 50 odd years and we have 2 chancers who if either died nobody would really care and some would even be happy.
How times change.
Well. I'd speculate that JFK would have struggled to have anything like the same aura in the modern world. The 50+ years has not just been about a change in the political class - real but not massive - but much more about both the retreat of deference, the massive widening of the popular voice through social media and changed media packaging (phone-ins, media interviewing techniques etc). |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Oct 31, 2020 8:32:01 GMT
I was listening to the Billy Joel song 'We didnt start the fire' yesterday and it triggered a memory of JFK dying and the how shocked and upset people were at the news (and this was in London) - now fast forward 50 odd years and we have 2 chancers who if either died nobody would really care and some would even be happy.
How times change.
Well. I'd speculate that JFK would have struggled to have anything like the same aura in the modern world. The 50+ years has not just been about a change in the political class - real but not massive - but much more about both the retreat of deference, the massive widening of the popular voice through social media and changed media packaging (phone-ins, media interviewing techniques etc). There are also the factor that the US two-party system has become much more ideological over that time. In the 50s and 60s the two parties weren't really on an ideological spectrum. And, of course, there are some rose-tinted glasses involved in comparing the two periods. JFK was not actually as beloved at the time as people remember him.
As for a modern President with a similar aura, I'd say that Obama came about as close to it as is actually possible in today's world. I'd argue he had it on the international stage (helped by the contrast with his predecessor), despite his very loud detractors domestically.
|
|
|
|
Post by London Lad on Oct 31, 2020 8:34:39 GMT
I was listening to the Billy Joel song 'We didnt start the fire' yesterday and it triggered a memory of JFK dying and the how shocked and upset people were at the news (and this was in London) - now fast forward 50 odd years and we have 2 chancers who if either died nobody would really care and some would even be happy.
How times change.
Well. I'd speculate that JFK would have struggled to have anything like the same aura in the modern world. The 50+ years has not just been about a change in the political class - real but not massive - but much more about both the retreat of deference, the massive widening of the popular voice through social media and changed media packaging (phone-ins, media interviewing techniques etc). Fair point - I wonder how JFK would have got on with the #metoo movement. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 31, 2020 10:35:48 GMT
When I was active in the Stretford & Urmston Conservatives, canvassers regularly found Green-BNP waverers. Or even the odd BNP-LD waverer! In France those kind of voters are heavily against vaccines, wi-fi and probably any advancement in technology since quite a long time. I don't think there is a french party more reactionary than the greens Renaud was right ! |
|
wallington
Green
The Pride of Croydon 2022 award winner
Posts: 1,322
|
Post by wallington on Oct 31, 2020 11:48:42 GMT
back in 2000, irc 2 5ths of Green voters would've voted Bush if they couldn't vote Green. conservative greens are a thing. When I was active in the Stretford & Urmston Conservatives, canvassers regularly found Green-BNP waverers. Or even the odd BNP-LD waverer! When I was living in Norwich and was active in politics, it was not uncommon to find Green/Tory voters, people who voted Green in locals and Tory in national elections. Also recall when canvassing at least a couple of people who were voting Green due to there being no BNP candidates standing. |
|
