The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,952
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 29, 2020 13:06:15 GMT
Was always going to vote for Biden, but would actually do so with more enthusiasm now than in the spring.
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,056 
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Post by jamie on Oct 29, 2020 13:38:09 GMT
Was always going to vote for Biden, but would actually do so with more enthusiasm now than in the spring. Biden is still a rather mediocre candidate but the bar for him was set so low by Trump, the Republicans, the media, and frankly Biden himself, that his mediocrity has become reassuring and viewed as better than it actually is. |
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Post by Richard Cromwell on Oct 29, 2020 14:12:00 GMT
Wilhelm Marx (Joe Biden)
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Post by thirdchill on Oct 29, 2020 15:44:27 GMT
Jorgensen, or if forced between the Binary choice of two, Biden.
Whilst not thinking that Trump is quite as bad as portrayed by his opponents, he has no dignity whatsoever and energises the polarising forces (on his own side, and on his opponents side), whereas I want the opposite (both extremes to become as marginalised as possible).
It's not just Trump though, and he's not my main reason. The GOP is not worth voting for as long as the evangelical religious right have a lot of influence. Barry Goldwater was spot on in his criticism of them.
Biden is congenial enough and don't mind him much personally but the Democratic party is becoming more unappealing the further it moves down the 'identity politics' route. I detest and loathe identity politics, and the stuff that has come with it.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,020
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 29, 2020 19:31:03 GMT
Jorgensen, or if forced between the Binary choice of two, Biden. Whilst not thinking that Trump is quite as bad as portrayed by his opponents, he has no dignity whatsoever and energises the polarising forces (on his own side, and on his opponents side), whereas I want the opposite (both extremes to become as marginalised as possible). It's not just Trump though, and he's not my main reason. The GOP is not worth voting for as long as the evangelical religious right have a lot of influence. Barry Goldwater was spot on in his criticism of them. Biden is congenial enough and don't mind him much personally but the Democratic party is becoming more unappealing the further it moves down the 'identity politics' route. I detest and loathe identity politics, and the stuff that has come with it. The problem is, both parties in the US are knee deep in identity politics and as you infer, it's getting worse. |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,764
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2020 20:17:25 GMT
I honestly hope this election will be the high-water mark of IDpol...
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 29, 2020 20:24:53 GMT
I honestly hope this election will be the high-water mark of IDpol... Because economics has traditionally been something which didn't split the parties on typical left-right lines, issues such as race and abortion have been more prominent in American politics and have been viewed more as "party issues". The role of interest groups and the relatively loose organisation of parties does not help. I don't see any sign of that changing. Twitter feeds shouldn't be confused with politics, though! |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 30, 2020 3:13:28 GMT
I honestly hope this election will be the high-water mark of IDpol... It may well be if Biden wins. If Trump does, I'll enjoy the reaction for a few days, but I expect it to turn dark. The hysteria on the left is unbelievably shocking. You'd genuinely think he were some sort of fascist, rather than a good old fashioned national populist. Ofc many on the right are no better, PizzaGate etc. They are a minority however. I do not believe they are any longer on the left. |
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Oct 30, 2020 9:46:24 GMT
... and the socialist mob behind her that freak me out. Dare I ask your views of the mob associated with Trump? |
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Post by relique on Oct 30, 2020 10:20:30 GMT
Honestly I think my politics are so far from us politicians that I'd have to write-in my own name.
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 30, 2020 10:35:10 GMT
Honestly I think my politics are so far from us politicians that I'd have to write-in my own name. Do I take it you meant US politicians rather than "us politicians"? In English that's a rather important distinction  |
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Post by relique on Oct 30, 2020 11:33:06 GMT
Honestly I think my politics are so far from us politicians that I'd have to write-in my own name. Do I take it you meant US politicians rather than "us politicians"? In English that's a rather important distinction But isn't smartphone-related laziness common to every language ? |
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Post by matureleft on Oct 30, 2020 11:57:52 GMT
I honestly hope this election will be the high-water mark of IDpol... Because economics has traditionally been something which didn't split the parties on typical left-right lines, issues such as race and abortion have been more prominent in American politics and have been viewed more as "party issues". The role of interest groups and the relatively loose organisation of parties does not help. I don't see any sign of that changing. Twitter feeds shouldn't be confused with politics, though! Largely agree. It doesn't help that people use the lazy term "identity politics". Defining your politics through some element of your identity has been the framework of political choice for many throughout my lifetime and long before. You'll be very familiar with Christian religious identity historically, but less now, being a divider particularly in some parts of this country, including Liverpool. Class has always been a major identity. Race has also been a key identity both here and in the USA, often compelled by the actions of particualar parties. I started being asked about sexuality issues as determinants of party choice long ago.
What some appear to object to is first some identities they don't approve of (as opposed to those I've listed that have long been accepted as part of politics) and secondly to the tactics used by those who choose to determine their politics through that identity. As with many things the use of social media has increased the temperature of any debate and exaggerated the significance of some of the participants in that debate.
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 30, 2020 13:11:30 GMT
Do I take it you meant US politicians rather than "us politicians"? In English that's a rather important distinction But isn't smartphone-related laziness common to every language ? sadly you may well be right  |
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Post by thirdchill on Oct 30, 2020 13:27:19 GMT
Because economics has traditionally been something which didn't split the parties on typical left-right lines, issues such as race and abortion have been more prominent in American politics and have been viewed more as "party issues". The role of interest groups and the relatively loose organisation of parties does not help. I don't see any sign of that changing. Twitter feeds shouldn't be confused with politics, though! Largely agree. It doesn't help that people use the lazy term "identity politics". Defining your politics through some element of your identity has been the framework of political choice for many throughout my lifetime and long before. You'll be very familiar with Christian religious identity historically, but less now, being a divider particularly in some parts of this country, including Liverpool. Class has always been a major identity. Race has also been a key identity both here and in the USA, often compelled by the actions of particualar parties. I started being asked about sexuality issues as determinants of party choice long ago.
What some appear to object to is first some identities they don't approve of (as opposed to those I've listed that have long been accepted as part of politics) and secondly to the tactics used by those who choose to determine their politics through that identity. As with many things the use of social media has increased the temperature of any debate and exaggerated the significance of some of the participants in that debate.
This line is really my main dislike of 'identity politics' as I see it, particularly those who then go on further from this and state that others should be politically this way or that way due to characteristics they have no control over, or have certain political positions due to that identity. Or to view every issue through the prism of that characteristic. Whilst on some political issues there may be some relevance, on others I fail to see the relevance. For instance, I don't see why my sexuality should determine whether economically I am capitalist or socialist, what my position is on immigration, on crime and punishment for offences such as robbery, rape, murder, I could go on, prison reform/abolishment, etc etc. I find this approach (and the people advocating it) to be narrow minded in it's own way. Party politics of course may be a slightly different matter. Even if I fully agreed with most of the republican positions on other issues, I would have great difficulty supporting them as long as the evangelical religious right have any form of influence. If I was living in the USA, I would see them as a threat, and here my sexuality is entirely relevant. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 30, 2020 13:38:13 GMT
... and the socialist mob behind her that freak me out. Dare I ask your views of the mob associated with Trump? I'm not a fan. I'm worried about the future of the US. The polarisation and the formation of armed camps look eerily like the start of a slide into civil war. |
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Post by manchesterman on Oct 30, 2020 13:47:06 GMT
I agree with that, and i also see similar (less pronounced) parallels here too - though I accept, many dont (yet)
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Oct 30, 2020 14:45:47 GMT
I agree with that, and i also see similar (less pronounced) parallels here too - though I accept, many dont (yet) I'm 100% with you on that. The nation is divided and politics is turning ugly. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Oct 30, 2020 16:28:55 GMT
My preferred result as a hypothetical American might be a Biden win with a Republican Senate. Divided government is better when the parties are as atrocious as they are, and thankfully they seem incapable of working together.
I can understand this sentiment.
My views are becoming increasingly less alligned with the Democrats, but Trump is such an awful candidate, I would have to vote Biden this time.
A different candidate; a more traditional 'non-tea party' Republican would probably have swayed my vote the other way.
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Post by railwaystand on Oct 30, 2020 17:37:30 GMT
Dare I ask your views of the mob associated with Trump? I'm not a fan. I'm worried about the future of the US. The polarisation and the formation of armed camps look eerily like the start of a slide into civil war. The US will be fine, we had a riot here in SC, it was grotesquely overplayed by the media and now the right wing. It was a few thugs from the wrong side of the tracks nicking clothes from the posh shops downtown, they rounded them up since. Having read many of your posts you don't have a good understanding of the US, I suspect your media inputs are rather unbalanced, you can't take UK perceptions and project them onto one of the most divided countries in the world, and it's always been that way it's not a recent thing. Your post on Trump being accepting of LGBTQ shows a lack of understanding, he may not have rolled back initiatives but, there is a perception he has not gone forward and in fact in very subtle ways he has moved the needle backwards with restrictive funding and other initiatives, sure, he hasn't created an anti-gay bill but, you don't do that here as it will alienate people you use the institutions to drive change. That applies equally to race relations. The US has had these militia camps since the 60's. Liberal CO has them all over the place, filled with right wing nutters who thing the bogie man is coming to take their guns away, the US is largely uninhabited, you can easily disappear off the grid in the US in ways you cant in Europe and nobody cares. If Trump wins there were be liberal tears and the next campaign starts, if Biden wins then in about a year his people will say he was never an appropriate President anyway. I will watch the results and view them through the prism of the reality show its become, with a beer or 7, its a results night after all. |
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