fourringcircus
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Toryism kills the humane spirit
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Post by fourringcircus on Oct 14, 2020 15:53:28 GMT
Oh please! don't start with that nonsense, Scotland is getting new powers nothing is being taken away. I fear you may need to look a bit more closely at what the internal market bill means. Devolution is being broken at the foundations in a very underhanded manner.
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 14, 2020 16:05:38 GMT
Oh please! don't start with that nonsense, Scotland is getting new powers nothing is being taken away. I fear you may need to look a bit more closely at what the internal market bill means. Devolution is being broken at the foundations in a very underhanded manner. Name me one power just one, going from Holyrood to Westminster.
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cogload
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Post by cogload on Oct 14, 2020 16:06:41 GMT
There ain't gonna be a vote. Not this side of 2025 anyway.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Oct 14, 2020 16:25:22 GMT
I thought afleitch's initial post was a bit over the top, in a we nationalists always know best way, but I am surprised it caused such a reaction.
Scottish Nationalists have a problem, if they over in your face it all the time, they will lose support for Independance from those who didn't really care one way or the other, people will start blocking them to spite them.
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fourringcircus
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Toryism kills the humane spirit
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Post by fourringcircus on Oct 14, 2020 16:33:06 GMT
Name me one power just one, going from Holyrood to Westminster. If only it were as simple as that.....
The internal market bill allows any UK minister to effectively instigate over-riding the devolved legislations. Take food standards for example. The internal market rules on mutual recognition and non-discrimination mean that goods which meet regulatory standards in one part of the UK are entitled to enter the market anywhere in the UK, without having to meet local regulations. These rules would not prevent Holyrood from making laws within their areas of competence, but they will affect the outcome of the laws, in that they will become pointless in the face of UK laws. Internal Market rules would not prevent a law on Scotish food standards being passed (banning chloronated chicken for example), but the rules would not apply to foodstuffs entering the Scottish market where these had already satisfied the regulations set for the Home Counties in Westminster. So, Scotland bans it, but if Westminster allows it, then we are powerless to prevent it from coming into our shops. That's not devolution in a union of equal nations. That's just exactly what happened before devolution began.
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 14, 2020 16:41:00 GMT
Name me one power just one, going from Holyrood to Westminster. If only it were as simple as that.....
The internal market bill allows any UK minister to effectively instigate over-riding the devolved legislations.Β Take food standards for example.Β The internal market rules on mutual recognition and non-discrimination mean that goods which meet regulatory standards in one part of the UK are entitled to enter the market anywhere in the UK, without having to meet local regulations.Β These rules would not prevent Holyrood from making laws within their areas of competence, but they will affect the outcome of the laws, in that they will become pointless in the face of UK laws.Β Internal Market rules would not prevent a law on Scotish food standards being passed (banning chloronated chicken for example), but the rules would not apply to foodstuffs entering the Scottish market where these had already satisfied the regulations set for the Home Counties in Westminster.Β So, Scotland bans it, but if Westminster allows it, then we are powerless to prevent it from coming into our shops.Β That's not devolution in a union of equal nations.Β That's just exactly what happened before devolution began.
My point is that is not a power grab, Westminster could if it wanted to legislate to over ride the devolved administrations on anything. And rightly so as it is the major legislative power house of the whole nation. The reality is I doubt Westminster would ever do this. The SNP keep banging on about a power grab but there isnβt one. And this is the defining point.
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fourringcircus
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Toryism kills the humane spirit
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Post by fourringcircus on Oct 14, 2020 16:46:44 GMT
My point is that is not a power grab, Westminster could if it wanted to legislate to over ride the devolved administrations on anything. And rightly so as it is the major legislative power house of the whole nation. The reality is I doubt Westminster would ever do this. The SNP keep banging on about a power grab but there isnβt one. And this is the defining point. So, we're not taking back any of your powers, but we're making you totally impotent if you want to do anything that's different to us......
And your defining point is it's still not a power grab? Perhaps you need to investigate the meaning of devolution. This (coupled with the Brexit omnishambles) will kill your precious union and it will be acheived via swathes of 2014 No voters rejecting your defining point.
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 14, 2020 16:54:15 GMT
My point is that is not a power grab, Westminster could if it wanted to legislate to over ride the devolved administrations on anything. And rightly so as it is the major legislative power house of the whole nation. The reality is I doubt Westminster would ever do this. The SNP keep banging on about a power grab but there isnβt one. And this is the defining point. So, we're not taking back any of your powers, but we're making you totally impotent if you want to do anything that's different to us......
And your defining point is it's still not a power grab?Β Perhaps you need to investigate the menaning of devolution.Β This (coupled with the Brexit omnishambles) will kill your precious union and it will be acheived via swathes of 2014 No voters rejecting your defining point.
Exactly how it should be π anything that affect the whole U.K. should be decided by the U.K. legislative. Again I doubt the SNP will deliver independence for the nation, just look at progress Scotland lead by Robertson 54% want to keep the pound long term 10% want the euro long term But you can only get the euro by joining the EU, and can only join the EU by giving up pound. So how can they answer that question? Debt, deficit, paying for defence, diplomats, the EU Then we have the cultural arguments for the union. The fundamentals of another referendum if fought will be completely different to 2014. I say bring it on, a fiver says the union wins by 5% or more at the next referendum πππ
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fourringcircus
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Toryism kills the humane spirit
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Post by fourringcircus on Oct 14, 2020 17:01:44 GMT
Exactly how it should be π anything that affect the whole U.K. should be decided by the U.K. legislative. Again I doubt the SNP will deliver independence for the nation, just look at progress Scotland lead by Robertson 54% want to keep the pound long term 10% want the euro long term But you can only get the euro by joining the EU, and can only join the EU by giving up pound. So how can they answer that question? Debt, deficit, paying for defence, diplomats, the EU Then we have the cultural arguments for the union. The fundamentals of another referendum if fought will be completely different to 2014. I say bring it on, a fiver says the union wins by 5% or more at the next referendum πππ The old arguments will not wash this time.
We may not want the β¬ and we may not even want to join the EU. But WE will decide when the time comes.
Our economics will be very different and our culture plays for independence rather than for the union.
I'm glad you think the fundamentals will be different, but instead of telling us what we can't do, how about giving us a positive case for continuing with the Union?
And I'll double your fiver if you get anywhere near your previous 55% in a plebiscite overseen by international observers.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 14, 2020 17:08:53 GMT
I'll cut you some slack because I'm getting some spectrum vibes. All I'm going to say is that it's misogynistic to claim as a man that you know what women think, it's still misogynistic to use misogynistic tropes even if you also use them against men, for the same reason it's still homophobic even if someone uses those tropes against straight men. You've created a misogynistic caricature of a woman voter who doesn't like Nicola because she's 'trying to be motherly' (?) and they all have domineering SNP husbands and are too scared to say what they really think but you, David, yes you know what they really think because they all talk to you because you're not a misogynist. When you know, you could have just looked at the facts and figures of the poll itself rather than resort to crafting some weird reality. You don't even have to do that; vote2012 is that weird reality! So, it's misogynistic to relate my experiences with what many women voters have told me? Right. But you said they didn't tell anyone !
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 14, 2020 17:36:44 GMT
I'm afraid not - I would hazard a guess that half the members of this forum are somewhere along the spectrum. My own is at the lesser end of the spectrum although I do have a slight speech impediment but it has been mostly eliminated and is no longer very noticeable. Half the members? That explains a lot!! The very definition of the word "spectrum" means that *everybody* is on it.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 14, 2020 17:53:07 GMT
So, it's misogynistic to relate my experiences with what many women voters have told me? Right. But you said they didn't tell anyone ! π. You are intelligent enough to know what I meant.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 14, 2020 18:04:23 GMT
But you said they didn't tell anyone ! π. You are intelligent enough to know what I meant.I'm intelligent enough to know that it's foolish to scale up what you've been told by a handful of people to a national scale.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 14, 2020 18:13:55 GMT
π. You are intelligent enough to know what I meant.I'm intelligent enough to know that it's foolish to scale up what you've been told by a handful of people to a national scale. Then you'll also know that personal experience is all we really have to go on when it comes to psephology, especially in the circumstances we are now, because you can't prove anything until one fifteen hour period in May.
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 14, 2020 18:32:45 GMT
I'm intelligent enough to know that it's foolish to scale up what you've been told by a handful of people to a national scale. Then you'll also know that personal experience is all we really have to go on when it comes to psephology, especially in the circumstances we are now, because you can't prove anything until one fifteen hour period in May. Polling is not personal experience. The conclusions from various research into psephological topics is not personal experience. Saying that all we have to go on is personal experience is simply untrue.
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Post by andrew on Oct 14, 2020 19:10:58 GMT
Stuff like the quick sacking of Ferrier compared to Cummings can only have helped the SNP. Margaret Ferrier might have done us a favour. I donβt think weβll actually get 58% in May (if Salmond really is going to publish his revelations shortly before, that could have virtually no impact or a fairly big one) but 50% could happen.
(Iβm actually not ASD surprisingly, although I am a bit of an election geek. Maybe I am lol.)
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 14, 2020 20:03:48 GMT
Then you'll also know that personal experience is all we really have to go on when it comes to psephology, especially in the circumstances we are now, because you can't prove anything until one fifteen hour period in May. Polling is not personal experience. The conclusions from various research into psephological topics is not personal experience. Saying that all we have to go on is personal experience is simply untrue. I don't trust polling, I trust what I see, hear and deduce. I thought Brexit would win in 2016, indeed I bet on it at Ladbrokes, based on what I was seeing and hearing from myself and friends elsewhere that I trust, likewise in 2015. I was right, polls were wrong.
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andrewp
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Post by andrewp on Oct 15, 2020 7:38:28 GMT
Stuff like the quick sacking of Ferrier compared to Cummings can only have helped the SNP. Margaret Ferrier might have done us a favour. I donβt think weβll actually get 58% in May (if Salmond really is going to publish his revelations shortly before, that could have virtually no impact or a fairly big one) but 50% could happen. (Iβm actually not ASD surprisingly, although I am a bit of an election geek. Maybe I am lol.) It is true but The difference in those two cases is of course that sacking a backbench MP has little collateral damage and provides the benefit of making the leadership look strong. I might be cynical but if situations were reversed I suspect that Johnson/ Cummings would have had little Problem in quickly sacking a backbench Tory MP and that Sturgeon may well have had as much reluctance to sack a senior advisor.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 15, 2020 11:29:39 GMT
But she might still have done it, after a relatively short agonising period.
Fairly or otherwise, I agree that the contrast between Ferrier and Cummings works well for both her and the SNP.
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johng
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Post by johng on Oct 30, 2020 9:22:16 GMT
Not sure why they are only releasing the poll now. Data was collected 5-7 weeks ago. A double digit lead for independence though.
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