middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050 
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Post by middyman on Jul 13, 2019 21:18:09 GMT
I was prompted to look this up following a tv programme in which brain scans of a youth and parent were compared. Some may find it unpalatable, but the medical fact is that the decision-making part of the brain is not fully developed until someone is about 25. This also explains why young drivers are so accident prone (unlike the elderly); they do not appreciate the extent of the risks they are taking and have poor judgment, quite the reverse of the qualities I would want to see in someone choosing a government. If you dienfrachise the under 25s you have to disenfranchised the over 70s, those with low iq (below 100?), those with altzheimer's diagnosis, those with Parkinsons, those with phobias, those with multiple sclerosis, those with addictions (including alcohol and tobacco) as that shows bad judgement etc etc etc Not true apparently www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24204489 |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jul 13, 2019 21:21:14 GMT
I was prompted to look this up following a tv programme in which brain scans of a youth and parent were compared. Some may find it unpalatable, but the medical fact is that the decision-making part of the brain is not fully developed until someone is about 25. This also explains why young drivers are so accident prone (unlike the elderly); they do not appreciate the extent of the risks they are taking and have poor judgment, quite the reverse of the qualities I would want to see in someone choosing a government. There is something in this, but there is also something in the idea that cognitive abilities decline towards the end of life too. Anyway, this misses the point that the right to vote is not based on the quality of judgement but on the need for consent from those ruled. Consent has to be informed consent which rules out infants and lunatics except during lucid intervals. The argument for votes at below 18 is essentially about whether or not they can give informed consent, not about whether or not they will exercise their vote wisely. My point is that the franchise should start when people are generally fit to make the decisions involved. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,772
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jul 14, 2019 2:43:03 GMT
If you dienfrachise the under 25s you have to disenfranchised the over 70s, those with low iq (below 100?), those with altzheimer's diagnosis, those with Parkinsons, those with phobias, those with multiple sclerosis, those with addictions (including alcohol and tobacco) as that shows bad judgement etc etc etc Why the bottom half of the population? Why not the bottom quarter?, or the bottom two-thirds? or the bottom 90%? |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,772
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jul 14, 2019 2:46:17 GMT
There is something in this, but there is also something in the idea that cognitive abilities decline towards the end of life too. Anyway, this misses the point that the right to vote is not based on the quality of judgement but on the need for consent from those ruled. Consent has to be informed consent which rules out infants and lunatics except during lucid intervals. The argument for votes at below 18 is essentially about whether or not they can give informed consent, not about whether or not they will exercise their vote wisely. My point is that the franchise should start when people are generally fit to make the decisions involved. And how would you test that? Any test will be an application of the prejudices of the test-maker. Far simpler and entirely non-subjective to state that you are an adult citizen, you have the adult citizen's right to vote. Full stop. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jul 14, 2019 6:42:52 GMT
My point is that the franchise should start when people are generally fit to make the decisions involved. And how would you test that? Any test will be an application of the prejudices of the test-maker. Far simpler and entirely non-subjective to state that you are an adult citizen, you have the adult citizen's right to vote. Full stop. The whole point is that we already know that under 25’s have impaired risk-taking and judgment-making capabilities. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jul 14, 2019 7:09:51 GMT
Deaths go up for the over 70s on that chart. My mother's insurance has gone up since she hit 75. Some older people are a risk as drivers of cars as they become timid drivers. Personally on driving I would be in favour of regular retests for everyone, every 5 years or so, hopefully it would stop / retrain overconfident inept, generally younger drivers and underconfident inept older drivers and make the roads safer. Your last point has merit. I just question the mechanics of organising it and the staffing required. |
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Post by yellowperil on Jul 14, 2019 7:31:38 GMT
Deaths go up for the over 70s on that chart. My mother's insurance has gone up since she hit 75. Some older people are a risk as drivers of cars as they become timid drivers. Personally on driving I would be in favour of regular retests for everyone, every 5 years or so, hopefully it would stop / retrain overconfident inept, generally younger drivers and underconfident inept older drivers and make the roads safer. Your last point has merit. I just question the mechanics of organising it and the staffing required. We may just be getting round to considering it when all cars become driverless. Oh and by the way what does that mean for a driving licence holder franchise? No more driving licences, no more electors? |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2019 10:18:58 GMT
Back on topic, Beatrice Wishart, Lerwick South councillor and Depute Convenor of Shetland Council, has been selected by the Lib Dems.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,925
Member is Online
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 14, 2019 10:21:50 GMT
There is something in this, but there is also something in the idea that cognitive abilities decline towards the end of life too. Anyway, this misses the point that the right to vote is not based on the quality of judgement but on the need for consent from those ruled. Consent has to be informed consent which rules out infants and lunatics except during lucid intervals. The argument for votes at below 18 is essentially about whether or not they can give informed consent, not about whether or not they will exercise their vote wisely. My point is that the franchise should start when people are generally fit to make the decisions involved. And the disagreement here is that other people have different ideas of what that "fitness" actually involves. |
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Post by syorkssocialist on Jul 14, 2019 10:23:02 GMT
Back on topic, Beatrice Wishart, Lerwick South councillor and Depute Convenor of Shetland Council, has been selected by the Lib Dems. How many of the independent Shetland councillors are actually LD or SNP members? Edit: checked the register of interests and it seems she's one of only two.
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,901
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Post by Tony Otim on Jul 14, 2019 10:39:49 GMT
And how would you test that? Any test will be an application of the prejudices of the test-maker. Far simpler and entirely non-subjective to state that you are an adult citizen, you have the adult citizen's right to vote. Full stop. The whole point is that we already know that under 25’s have impaired risk-taking and judgment-making capabilities. But as has already been pointed out, that may be relevant to driving, but isn't really relevant to the decision-making processes of voting in an election. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2019 13:18:43 GMT
Back on topic, Beatrice Wishart, Lerwick South councillor and Depute Convenor of Shetland Council, has been selected by the Lib Dems. Any relation of Pete Wishart? |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jul 15, 2019 8:54:08 GMT
The whole point is that we already know that under 25’s have impaired risk-taking and judgment-making capabilities. But as has already been pointed out, that may be relevant to driving, but isn't really relevant to the decision-making processes of voting in an election. Could not disagree more. Ability to make rational and sensible decisions is exactly what voting is, or should be, about. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jul 15, 2019 8:55:31 GMT
Your last point has merit. I just question the mechanics of organising it and the staffing required. We may just be getting round to considering it when all cars become driverless. Oh and by the way what does that mean for a driving licence holder franchise? No more driving licences, no more electors? It may be I am having a bad morning, but I cannot see any logic in this post at all. |
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,901
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Post by Tony Otim on Jul 15, 2019 12:28:47 GMT
But as has already been pointed out, that may be relevant to driving, but isn't really relevant to the decision-making processes of voting in an election. Could not disagree more. Ability to make rational and sensible decisions is exactly what voting is, or should be, about. Yes, you keep repeating that point over and over rather than attempting to address what is being said. The evidence you have raised is completely irrelevant to the context under discussion and there is zero evidence that young people are any less capable than their elders of making rational sensible decisions in a voting context. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jul 15, 2019 12:51:42 GMT
Could not disagree more. Ability to make rational and sensible decisions is exactly what voting is, or should be, about. Yes, you keep repeating that point over and over rather than attempting to address what is being said. The evidence you have raised is completely irrelevant to the context under discussion and there is zero evidence that young people are any less capable than their elders of making rational sensible decisions in a voting context. The medical research is that rational thought processes are not fully developed until about 25. Full Stop. Motoring accident statistics is just one manifestation of a state of affairs which affects everything. Where is there any evidence that it only affects one area of thought processes? I have not claimed that. |
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Post by syorkssocialist on Jul 15, 2019 12:53:42 GMT
Ignore middyman, he's performing mental gymnastics to try and justify making an undemocratic change to the voting system that would benefit his party in the short term.
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Post by yellowperil on Jul 15, 2019 13:07:59 GMT
We may just be getting round to considering it when all cars become driverless. Oh and by the way what does that mean for a driving licence holder franchise? No more driving licences, no more electors? It may be I am having a bad morning, but I cannot see any logic in this post at all. Maybe you are having a bad morning, but the second point was in response to Defenestrated Fipplebox, not to you. He suggested you should need a driving licence in order to vote, thereby excluding the young and immature with no driving licence and the elderly seniles who have their driving licences taken away. I was merely pointing out that in addition to all the other things wrong with that idea, driverless cars are coming fast upon us,and within a decade the concept of driving licences for all may well be dead and buried. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jul 15, 2019 13:17:57 GMT
It may be I am having a bad morning, but I cannot see any logic in this post at all. Maybe you are having a bad morning, but the second point was in response to Defenestrated Fipplebox , not to you. He suggested you should need a driving licence in order to vote, thereby excluding the young and immature with no driving licence and the elderly seniles who have their driving licences taken away. I was merely pointing out that in addition to all the other things wrong with that idea, driverless cars are coming fast upon us,and within a decade the concept of driving licences for all may well be dead and buried. Thank you. Hope it went well this morning. |
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Post by syorkssocialist on Jul 15, 2019 13:18:34 GMT
I think the concept of driving licenses for all is already more or less dead outside of rural areas with poor bus/rail links. Many people prefer to use public transport for environmental reasons, or because they don't feel comfortable driving.
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