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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 7, 2019 22:21:04 GMT
I'd noticed that on a number of maps of the results I've seen that the eastern protrusion of the Chaldiki peninsula in Macedonia was greyed out and on investigation discovered this which is of some interest (though probably already known to many here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 7, 2019 22:22:34 GMT
I'd noticed that on a number of maps of the results I've seen that the eastern protrusion of the Chaldiki peninsula in Macedonia was greyed out and on investigation discovered this which is of some interest (though probably already known to many here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_AthosA place where mostly men discuss arcane points forgotten or of little interest to most of the outside world. It'll never catch on. |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 7, 2019 22:31:40 GMT
I'd noticed that on a number of maps of the results I've seen that the eastern protrusion of the Chaldiki peninsula in Macedonia was greyed out and on investigation discovered this which is of some interest (though probably already known to many here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos
Very interesting programmes all round.
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Tony Otim
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Post by Tony Otim on Jul 8, 2019 16:07:10 GMT
Yes of course they do. My point was that the allusion that Gwynne makes to the BBC obsessing about the rise of 'far right' parties in Europe is generally based on the (relative) electoral success of parties that are nothing of the kind (AfD, Lega, UKIP etc). There's a lot of truth in that, but then again many parties on the left (including the Labour party) are often described as far-left (or similar in more derogatory terms) and sometimes by the very people who object to the far-right term. I know there was a thread a wee while ago trying to define the limits of hard/far/extreme right and left, but any simple classification is going to lack nuance. I'm not sure, if we were going to group the likes of Lega, AfD and UKIP together what the best term would be - populist right perhaps, with the likes of Syriza and Podemos as populist left? |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2019 16:27:08 GMT
I'd noticed that on a number of maps of the results I've seen that the eastern protrusion of the Chaldiki peninsula in Macedonia was greyed out and on investigation discovered this which is of some interest (though probably already known to many here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_AthosA place where mostly men discuss arcane points forgotten or of little interest to most of the outside world. It'll never catch on. Oh, but here, most of the men are gay. Whereas in monasteries...oh, right.... |
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Jul 8, 2019 16:34:09 GMT
I’d struggle to even call Syriza ‘populist’. This is a party which held a referendum to reinforce its position and then went against said referendum a week later in order to implement a neoliberal (for want of a better term) agenda. Pasok is more populist at this point.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2019 16:41:28 GMT
I’d struggle to even call Syriza ‘populist’. This is a party which held a referendum to reinforce its position and then went against said referendum a week later in order to implement a neoliberal (for want of a better term) agenda. Pasok is more populist at this point. Yes. Their reluctance to abandon the Euro meant they ended up caving in on just about everything - in many ways its surprising they maintained as much support as they did. It will be interesting to see what happens now, as despite the rather odd electoral system which gives the leading party a majority irrespective of whether they have a numerical one or not, the left still polled as many votes as the right overall. |
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Tony Otim
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Post by Tony Otim on Jul 8, 2019 16:49:24 GMT
Agreed, but in origins they were populist and are perhaps an extreme example of the difficulties in combining populism with the actual wielding of power. Populism works much better in opposition.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 8, 2019 17:03:50 GMT
Agreed, but in origins they were populist and are perhaps an extreme example of the difficulties in combining populism with the actual wielding of power. Populism works much better in opposition. A chap on Radio 4 just made the point that populism runs aground in power because the conflicting interests of a populist party's electorate have to be confronted or ignored, neither of which can satisfy everyone. |
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Tony Otim
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Post by Tony Otim on Jul 8, 2019 18:50:59 GMT
Agreed, but in origins they were populist and are perhaps an extreme example of the difficulties in combining populism with the actual wielding of power. Populism works much better in opposition. A chap on Radio 4 just made the point that populism runs aground in power because the conflicting interests of a populist party's electorate have to be confronted or ignored, neither of which can satisfy everyone. Yeah - I heard that too. Interestingly, to take us full circle, the introductory waffle to the discussion referred to rise of Syriza as the rise of the far left in Europe, which is kind of the point I was making earlier. It's inaccurate, but inaccurate on both wings... I think the point that was made is part of it. I also think that, relatedly, so much populism is anti - anti-immigration, anti-austerity, whatever. Which works great in opposition, but in government you actually have to try to do something, not just oppose and then your electoral coalition starts to crumble a bit... |
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Post by Antiochian on Jul 8, 2019 18:52:30 GMT
I'd noticed that on a number of maps of the results I've seen that the eastern protrusion of the Chaldiki peninsula in Macedonia was greyed out and on investigation discovered this which is of some interest (though probably already known to many here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_AthosA place where mostly men discuss arcane points forgotten or of little interest to most of the outside world. It'll never catch on. How many angels can stand on the head of a pin was a real crowd stopper in the barbershops of old Byzantium... |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 8, 2019 22:39:26 GMT
I feel sorry for Tsipras. The first Greek leader who told them that taxes weren't funny things other people paid, and that letting ND and PASOK make up a load of dodgy civil service jobs for cash was not a sustainable way to run a country. And also demonstrating that a weird racist grudge against a small group of Slavs wasn't really a good use of the country's energy.
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2019 22:47:46 GMT
I feel sorry for Tsipras. The first Greek leader who told them that taxes weren't funny things other people paid, and that letting ND and PASOK make up a load of dodgy civil service jobs for cash was not a sustainable way to run a country. And also demonstrating that a weird racist grudge against a small group of Slavs wasn't really a good use of the country's energy. Quite And the EU's lack of support for what he was trying to do is one of the reasons I nearly voted Leave and am not really bothered if we stay or not. Now we have the ND Family back in charge. I sincerely hope that the left will be able to stay intact as despite the Greek electoral system there are as many left wing as right wing voters |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 8, 2019 23:12:01 GMT
I feel sorry for Tsipras. The first Greek leader who told them that taxes weren't funny things other people paid, and that letting ND and PASOK make up a load of dodgy civil service jobs for cash was not a sustainable way to run a country. And also demonstrating that a weird racist grudge against a small group of Slavs wasn't really a good use of the country's energy. Quite And the EU's lack of support for what he was trying to do is one of the reasons I nearly voted Leave and am not really bothered if we stay or not. Now we have the ND Family back in charge. I sincerely hope that the left will be able to stay intact as despite the Greek electoral system there are as many left wing as right wing voters I would argue that he was hamstrung by the Varoufakis tendency (now gone mainly) and their delusion that Greece was negotiating from a position of strength and basically didn't need to change a thing. The EU, and particularly the Germans and the Baltic states, weren't best pleased. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jul 8, 2019 23:24:14 GMT
I’d struggle to even call Syriza ‘populist’. This is a party which held a referendum to reinforce its position and then went against said referendum a week later in order to implement a neoliberal (for want of a better term) agenda. Pasok is more populist at this point. Yes. Their reluctance to abandon the Euro meant they ended up caving in on just about everything - in many ways its surprising they maintained as much support as they did. It will be interesting to see what happens now, as despite the rather odd electoral system which gives the leading party a majority irrespective of whether they have a numerical one or not, the left still polled as many votes as the right overall. It does not. It gives an additional 50 seats to the largest party. Syriza had to go into coalition with Anel ("Independent" Greeks) after both the previous two general elections. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2019 23:27:20 GMT
Quite And the EU's lack of support for what he was trying to do is one of the reasons I nearly voted Leave and am not really bothered if we stay or not. Now we have the ND Family back in charge. I sincerely hope that the left will be able to stay intact as despite the Greek electoral system there are as many left wing as right wing voters I would argue that he was hamstrung by the Varoufakis tendency (now gone mainly) and their delusion that Greece was negotiating from a position of strength and basically didn't need to change a thing. The EU, and particularly the Germans and the Baltic states, weren't best pleased. I'm not so sure. I think Varoufakis had the measure of the EU and their intentions because he grasps what globalisation is all about - unlike you I'm a fan. Tsipras was too trusting. The EU wanted the usual privatise-and-cut-and-liberalise agenda |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2019 23:28:43 GMT
Yes. Their reluctance to abandon the Euro meant they ended up caving in on just about everything - in many ways its surprising they maintained as much support as they did. It will be interesting to see what happens now, as despite the rather odd electoral system which gives the leading party a majority irrespective of whether they have a numerical one or not, the left still polled as many votes as the right overall. It does not. It gives an additional 50 seats to the largest party. Syriza had to go into coalition with Anel ("Independent" Greeks) after both the previous two general elections. Ok. Its still a ridiculous system made to encourage corruption. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 9, 2019 7:17:28 GMT
I would argue that he was hamstrung by the Varoufakis tendency (now gone mainly) and their delusion that Greece was negotiating from a position of strength and basically didn't need to change a thing. The EU, and particularly the Germans and the Baltic states, weren't best pleased. I'm not so sure. I think Varoufakis had the measure of the EU and their intentions because he grasps what globalisation is all about - unlike you I'm a fan. Tsipras was too trusting. The EU wanted the usual privatise-and-cut-and-liberalise agenda I'm not sure I'm convinced by that- Tsipras had to face down Varoufakis's plan to hand over the management of the banks to the EU! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 7:31:55 GMT
The funny thing is it was Varoufakis who wanted to push to continue with the privatisation of Greek ports and it was EU that intervened and stopped China from investing
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Post by edgbaston on Jul 9, 2019 7:35:58 GMT
The funny thing is it was Varoufakis who wanted to push to continue with the privatisation of Greek ports and it was EU that intervened and stopped China from investing The more one learns about YV after reading his book, the less one thinks of him. |
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