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Post by edgbaston on Jul 21, 2019 18:47:23 GMT
I can't see any problem with FPTP for a single-member, specific post such as this. Of course I think they should do away with the role altogether and 85% of the Northumbria electorate seem to agree. The issue is you get negative voting, and the underlying problem you have with FPTP isn't solved. Tories & Liberals voting for a random indy as a second choice to stop Labour, leading to the second placed candidate winning, may make things look nice on a bar chart but it is in fact fake, sentimental legitimacy that ignores how the voting system would actually operate. FPTP has problems but they aren't solved by more complex voting systems in nearly every case. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 21, 2019 19:06:23 GMT
I can't see any problem with FPTP for a single-member, specific post such as this. Other than the fact that, using FPTP, 62% of voters would get a PCC they didn't vote for? Of course I think they should do away with the role altogether and 85% of the Northumbria electorate seem to agree. And the same is true under this system - I don't believe 'second best' should count Mind you , I entirely agree with the second point. |
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,054 
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Post by jamie on Jul 21, 2019 19:25:43 GMT
The issue is you get negative voting, and the underlying problem you have with FPTP isn't solved. Tories & Liberals voting for a random indy as a second choice to stop Labour, leading to the second placed candidate winning, may make things look nice on a bar chart but it is in fact fake, sentimental legitimacy that ignores how the voting system would actually operate. FPTP has problems but they aren't solved by more complex voting systems in nearly every case. But under FPTP you still get negative voting as people tactically vote for someone who is not their 1st choice, At least under AV (for executive posts like this) you avoid the randomness and luck of FPTP and SV and allow people to positively vote with their 1st preference. |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Jul 21, 2019 21:06:32 GMT
They have abysmal turnout and politicise something that didn’t need politicising. Yeah, because policing is apolitical. The real problem is that the role doesn't have enough power. I wanted wholesale sackings of chief constables and a focus on day to day basic crime and so on. Instead they're just time servers topping up their pensions, useless hacks and establishment stooges who just do whatever they're told by the people at Police HQ. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 21, 2019 21:18:03 GMT
They have abysmal turnout and politicise something that didn’t need politicising. Yeah, because policing is apolitical. The real problem is that the role doesn't have enough power. I wanted wholesale sackings of chief constables and a focus on day to day basic crime and so on. Instead they're just time servers topping up their pensions, useless hacks and establishment stooges who just do whatever they're told by the people at Police HQ. Essentially they took over the powers of the old police authorities - but there has always been a clear division between operational policing which was the responsibility of the Chief Constable and remains so under the PCC. This restricts what they can do in terms of some of the day to day stuff as they can't make oparational decisions The old authorities weren't perfect. I served on one for 4 years. However, the advantage was that among the 17 people there were different areas of knowledge and skill and we did hold the police to account . Also the nature of a single Commissioner means they have to get on with their CC simply because they are so reliant on the police for the information they need. What has most characterised the PCC's in action is a sociological concept called 'going native', where the PCC ends up seeing things almost entirely from the point of view of the CC. This did tend to happen with the Chairs of the old authorities and the CC. but there ware another 16 of us, and none of us were paid a full time generous salary for carrying out the role, so could afford to have run ins with them far more easily. However, not having operational control does inevitably have its limitations. Its also why quite often candidates for PCC who are ex coppers have actually done quite well, because they know the lingo and can sound impressive. It also means they are even more likely to go native. |
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Post by edgbaston on Jul 21, 2019 21:21:26 GMT
The issue is you get negative voting, and the underlying problem you have with FPTP isn't solved. Tories & Liberals voting for a random indy as a second choice to stop Labour, leading to the second placed candidate winning, may make things look nice on a bar chart but it is in fact fake, sentimental legitimacy that ignores how the voting system would actually operate. FPTP has problems but they aren't solved by more complex voting systems in nearly every case. But under FPTP you still get negative voting as people tactically vote for someone who is not their 1st choice, At least under AV (for executive posts like this) you avoid the randomness and luck of FPTP and SV and allow people to positively vote with their 1st preference. I did not deny it. But *every* voting system has a tactical/negative voting element that you can find. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 21, 2019 21:24:00 GMT
But under FPTP you still get negative voting as people tactically vote for someone who is not their 1st choice, At least under AV (for executive posts like this) you avoid the randomness and luck of FPTP and SV and allow people to positively vote with their 1st preference. I did not deny it. But *every* voting system has a tactical/negative voting element that you can find. AMS or similar mixed constituency-list systems less so |
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peterl
Green
Congratulations President Trump
Posts: 8,473
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Post by peterl on Jul 23, 2019 15:13:14 GMT
AMS has a lot of merits. But you can't really use it when electing a single figure like a police commissioner.
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 23, 2019 15:25:02 GMT
AMS has a lot of merits. But you can't really use it when electing a single figure like a police commissioner. Agreed. FPTP is perfectly satisfactory for that purpose |
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peterl
Green
Congratulations President Trump
Posts: 8,473
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Post by peterl on Jul 23, 2019 15:37:02 GMT
I would think it probably is.
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,732
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Post by Chris from Brum on Jul 23, 2019 15:41:15 GMT
AMS has a lot of merits. But you can't really use it when electing a single figure like a police commissioner. Agreed. FPTP is perfectly satisfactory for that purpose Spin the bottle would work adequately for such an insignificant post. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,788
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Post by john07 on Jul 23, 2019 18:01:34 GMT
Most of them are hounded from office, as voters think they were sold a pup. You may be barking up the wrong tree there. |
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Post by La Fontaine on Jul 24, 2019 16:23:33 GMT
Georgina has announced in a letter to the Journal that she intends to stand again in May. She will expect to reduce the number of wasted votes.
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Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,844
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Post by Crimson King on Jul 25, 2019 8:07:17 GMT
Most of them are hounded from office, as voters think they were sold a pup. You may be barking up the wrong tree there. thats the problem with working on the basis of a ruff guess |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 25, 2019 8:09:27 GMT
You may be barking up the wrong tree there. thats the problem with working on the basis of a ruff guess The Pun police will be along shortly to feel your collar, and send you off with a flea in your ear. |
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Post by Rose Tinted Lane on Jul 26, 2019 11:18:41 GMT
For what it's worth, I can't think of a single situation where SV is preferable to AV.
And FPTP is less objectionable when forming a government doesn't rely on the results of 650 separate FPTP elections. So having 40ish stand-alone FPTP elections has a less disagreeable overall result, but it still means you could end up with 40 Tory/Labour PCCs on 30% of the vote across the whole voting area. AV would be my preference for PCC elections.
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,054
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Post by jamie on Aug 16, 2019 9:36:05 GMT
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Post by Merseymike on Aug 16, 2019 10:11:59 GMT
What would be the best descriptor for the LibDem candidate? I'm tempted to suggest that behaviour is just "normal for Liberals" |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 16, 2019 10:19:37 GMT
Liberal Democrats in the north-east generally tend to be extremely anti-Labour.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,925
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 16, 2019 10:21:47 GMT
Women politicians can't win whether they are good looking or not, can they?
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