The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 20, 2019 10:17:10 GMT
Hill as a "surrogate" BxP candidate makes sense, and the final result is along the lines some of us predicted had they officially stood in the aftermath of their very successful Euro election results in this "constituency". Given that, Labour can arguably be pleased to have won even if it is a sizeable drop on 2016.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823 
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Post by timmullen1 on Jul 20, 2019 10:18:59 GMT
I see more and more police officers openly backing Labour. It will hopefully become another public sector base of support along with NHS staff and council workers. It was the 'openly' bit I was questioning. I was always under the impression that Police officers were not supposed to publicly declare a political affiliation. Of course many will have a private political affiliation and it isn't surprising if increasingly these involve pro-Labour views, given the influx into the profession of left wing sociology graduates and the like as well as the focus on recruiting from certain 'under-represented groups' which happen to also be the Labour party's main client groups I don’t think PCSO’s are subject to the same constraints as regular police officers; it’s certainly not unusual for the two PCSO’s covering where I live to publicly praise (or criticise) the local councillors and their political groupings, and elsewhere in the City a PCSO actively encouraged people not to re-elect an incumbent in May. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 20, 2019 10:23:59 GMT
It was the 'openly' bit I was questioning. I was always under the impression that Police officers were not supposed to publicly declare a political affiliation. Of course many will have a private political affiliation and it isn't surprising if increasingly these involve pro-Labour views, given the influx into the profession of left wing sociology graduates and the like as well as the focus on recruiting from certain 'under-represented groups' which happen to also be the Labour party's main client groups In my experience there’s always been a few Labour supporters (confirmed by my partner who is a retired police officer). However she reflects the more likely cause of an increase in Labour sympathies. There’s been a relentless pressure on police spending since 2010 while the tasks officers face continue to increase. There’s also been some (understandable to an outsider) assault on aspects of their terms and conditions. That, together with Brexit, has shifted her from an instinctive Tory to politically homeless. If you recall the Federation involvement around the Andrew Mitchell case you’ll see that some political (if not nakedly party political) edge isn’t new in this largely Tory period of government. Yes I recall - it took some doing to make me sympathise with the odious Andrew Mitchell.. |
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Post by matureleft on Jul 20, 2019 10:31:16 GMT
In my experience there’s always been a few Labour supporters (confirmed by my partner who is a retired police officer). However she reflects the more likely cause of an increase in Labour sympathies. There’s been a relentless pressure on police spending since 2010 while the tasks officers face continue to increase. There’s also been some (understandable to an outsider) assault on aspects of their terms and conditions. That, together with Brexit, has shifted her from an instinctive Tory to politically homeless. If you recall the Federation involvement around the Andrew Mitchell case you’ll see that some political (if not nakedly party political) edge isn’t new in this largely Tory period of government. Yes I recall - it took some doing to make me sympathise with the odious Andrew Mitchell.. I was (briefly) at University with him and knew him slightly. Encountering him again in later life wasn't very pleasant. I'm afraid not even the Federation's efforts (which were certainly wrong) could make me sympathise! The eventual outcome of his libel case still brings a smile to my face. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Jul 20, 2019 10:35:37 GMT
Why would it be ridiculous if the second-placed candidate overhauled the first-place candidate following distribution of preferences? It isn't a first past the post system For starters, because not all preferences get counted? You make this comment evidently unaware of what a dire voting system SV actually is. Hint - its not the same as AV (which would be a lot more sensible) It is a ridiculous system dreamed up by a man who isn't even a quarter as intelligent as he thinks he is. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 20, 2019 10:49:49 GMT
Is that a reference to the former MP for Workington?
(one of my - generally very minor - claims to fame is having once known him personally)
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 20, 2019 10:56:38 GMT
Is that a reference to the former MP for Workington? (one of my - generally very minor - claims to fame is having once known him personally) Wow! Is it possible to know someone impersonally? Perhaps for the first time ever? |
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,730
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Post by Chris from Brum on Jul 20, 2019 11:03:08 GMT
Is that a reference to the former MP for Workington? (one of my - generally very minor - claims to fame is having once known him personally) Wow! Is it possible to know someone impersonally? Perhaps for the first time ever? Knowing personally, as opposed to knowing by reputation? |
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 20, 2019 11:09:18 GMT
Wow! Is it possible to know someone impersonally? Perhaps for the first time ever? Knowing personally, as opposed to knowing by reputation? One can 'know of' some one withouting 'knowing' them. If one says one 'knows' them then the personally is an absolute given. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 20, 2019 13:11:12 GMT
It was the 'openly' bit I was questioning. I was always under the impression that Police officers were not supposed to publicly declare a political affiliation. Of course many will have a private political affiliation and it isn't surprising if increasingly these involve pro-Labour views, given the influx into the profession of left wing sociology graduates and the like as well as the focus on recruiting from certain 'under-represented groups' which happen to also be the Labour party's main client groups I don’t think PCSO’s are subject to the same constraints as regular police officers; it’s certainly not unusual for the two PCSO’s covering where I live to publicly praise (or criticise) the local councillors and their political groupings, and elsewhere in the City a PCSO actively encouraged people not to re-elect an incumbent in May. You are right, because they are civilian staff The reason they exist at all is : 1. because its a model which worked reasonably well in London and the tendency is always to assume it will work elsewhere 2. They are not covered by the police pension scheme so saves the forces money rather than recruiting more constables |
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Post by offshore on Jul 20, 2019 19:50:54 GMT
When I joined the Met (in 1980), it was very markedly right-leaning, although probably even then not as much as public perception would suggest - maybe 80-20, or 85-15. It could certainly cause issues, I can remember lots of comments the first time I was seen reading the Guardian. I did find lots of support and backup in places both expected (officers senior to me who'd come through from university) and unexpected - my first sergeant said privately he'd wished he'd had the balls to show he was a lefty.
It became a bigger issue during the miners' strike. I had a really hard time from a number of guys in my unit who basically decided I was one of the other side. That was the only time I felt like chucking it in, but by then I'd already decided to try and move to being a DC. Even then I got sabotaged by being sidelined into an unpopular area (for the time), rape and sex crimes. Got the last laugh as I really enjoyed it.
By the time I left in 1998, things were already changing massively, not least because of the big shift in recruitment goals, and because there'd been a definite shift in ethos to encourage officers to challenge views around and above them. Certainly there was no automatic assumption that Tory was right and Labour was wrong.
One other thing I'd add is that shire police always seemed much better balanced in this than the met; I had a lot of contact with Kent through my father, and other forces around London (Surrey, Essex, plus Sussex because of Gatwick) because of my job, and they always seemed a few years ahead of where we were.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,025
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Post by Sibboleth on Jul 20, 2019 20:20:02 GMT
One other thing I'd add is that shire police always seemed much better balanced in this than the met; I had a lot of contact with Kent through my father, and other forces around London (Surrey, Essex, plus Sussex because of Gatwick) because of my job, and they always seemed a few years ahead of where we were. Yeah, the extreme political imbalance (and frankly often pretty extreme views) typical of the Met weren't the norm elsewhere, even if city forces tended to be notably to the right of the areas they served. As you say, elsewhere the tendency was to reflect the local landscape, which is the reason why the Met was brought in to do the dirty work during the 1984-5 NUM strike (as local forces were not thought to be sufficiently politically reliable). |
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 20, 2019 22:31:46 GMT
Very true.
Most of the Merseyside coppers I have known over the years haven't been Tory. Some are, of course, but I think these days a lot of them view themselves as part of the public sector and largely not respected by the Tories.
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Post by andrew111 on Jul 21, 2019 13:29:03 GMT
Why would it be ridiculous if the second-placed candidate overhauled the first-place candidate following distribution of preferences? It isn't a first past the post system For starters, because not all preferences get counted? You make this comment evidently unaware of what a dire voting system SV actually is. Hint - its not the same as AV (which would be a lot more sensible) Agreed that AV is superior but there is nothing ridiculous in someone who fails to command 50% of the votes failing to win an election. |
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Post by greenchristian on Jul 21, 2019 15:31:08 GMT
For starters, because not all preferences get counted? You make this comment evidently unaware of what a dire voting system SV actually is. Hint - its not the same as AV (which would be a lot more sensible) Agreed that AV is superior but there is nothing ridiculous in someone who fails to command 50% of the votes failing to win an election. There are two fairly sensible ways to deal with this issue. One is AV - allowing full preferencing of candidates. The other is using a French-style two-stage election. SV is ridiculous because it tries to incorporate a two-round system into a single ballot paper, and a massive number of preferences can be wasted if the electorate has guessed wrongly about which candidates are in the top two. It gives almost none of the advantages of full preference systems, and does very little to ameliorate the flaws in FPTP. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 21, 2019 15:36:02 GMT
Agreed that AV is superior but there is nothing ridiculous in someone who fails to command 50% of the votes failing to win an election. There are two fairly sensible ways to deal with this issue. One is AV - allowing full preferencing of candidates. The other is using a French-style two-stage election. SV is ridiculous because it tries to incorporate a two-round system into a single ballot paper, and a massive number of preferences can be wasted if the electorate has guessed wrongly about which candidates are in the top two. It gives almost none of the advantages of full preference systems, and does very little to ameliorate the flaws in FPTP. I can't see any problem with FPTP for a single-member, specific post such as this. |
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yorkshireluke
Lib Dem
I run @polmapsinfoUK, @YorkshireElects and /r/PoliticalMaps/
Posts: 776
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Post by yorkshireluke on Jul 21, 2019 17:42:19 GMT
There are two fairly sensible ways to deal with this issue. One is AV - allowing full preferencing of candidates. The other is using a French-style two-stage election. SV is ridiculous because it tries to incorporate a two-round system into a single ballot paper, and a massive number of preferences can be wasted if the electorate has guessed wrongly about which candidates are in the top two. It gives almost none of the advantages of full preference systems, and does very little to ameliorate the flaws in FPTP. I can't see any problem with FPTP for a single-member, specific post such as this. Other than the fact that, using FPTP, 62% of voters would get a PCC they didn't vote for? Of course I think they should do away with the role altogether and 85% of the Northumbria electorate seem to agree. |
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,054
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Post by jamie on Jul 21, 2019 18:18:46 GMT
Of course I think they should do away with the role altogether and 85% of the Northumbria electorate seem to agree. PCCs must be the elected position which had attracted least attention from the public. I talk politics with friends a lot and I don’t think I’ve ever heard PCCs mentioned. In fact, I don’t think anybody I know has ever mentioned them ever! Even as someone who voted I would happily do away with them. They have abysmal turnout and politicise something that didn’t need politicising. God forbid we go down the American route of electing everything from dog catcher to marriage certifier! |
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Post by timrollpickering on Jul 21, 2019 18:37:24 GMT
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 21, 2019 18:40:30 GMT
Most of them are hounded from office, as voters think they were sold a pup. |
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