timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 6, 2019 11:46:22 GMT
It's a rule that all Welsh results must be given in Welsh and English but not all Welsh returning officers are Welsh-speakers. And some considerably over-estimate their degree of fluency. There’s that great TV moment on the BBC’s coverage of the 1998 Welsh referendum when everything hung on the last declaration and Huw Edwards is translating from Welsh to English faster than the Returning Officer can read the same.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 6, 2019 11:48:02 GMT
Why are declarations so quickly deleted from all searchable records? There are quite a few 2017 and 2015 GE declarations on YouTube, but after that one is indeed struggling a bit.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 6, 2019 11:55:35 GMT
Welsh numbers are not difficult to translate; they are grammatically the same as in English. I picked it up quite quickly when watching the 1997 referendum.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 6, 2019 11:57:56 GMT
It's a rule that all Welsh results must be given in Welsh and English but not all Welsh returning officers are Welsh-speakers. And some considerably over-estimate their degree of fluency. I find some of their efforts painful and amusing in roughly equal measures.
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Post by finsobruce on Aug 6, 2019 12:11:16 GMT
DECLARATION OF POLL Surely we may all agree that for an effective declaration of poll the essentials are An effective accurate quick count. Agreement on the results by the agents. Declaration made by an official observing Good modulation of voice Clear effective diction Sufficient volume of speech Pauses for effect and for scribes to keep up Speak in a mode and a language understood by the majority of your audience. Question: If employing Welsh and only Welsh, will there be any failing to understand the declaration? If employing English and only English will there be any failing to understand? Answer: Yes to the former. Probably half the hall and a large majority of greater audience. No to the latter. Probably not a single person in the total audience will fail. Conclusion: Using Welsh and only Welsh in the declaration was not just a mistake but a gross mistake and a very gross discourtesy to many people who had bothered to stay up and attend. And a known and a contrived discourtesy by a complete and utter twerp. The Declaration is an important civil and political event. it is not a moment for turf wars and grandstanding nonsense by a small-minded twerp intent on causing ill-feeling. We deserved a service and we received indirect calculated abuse causing those of us none too keen on the Welsh at the best of times to confirm our views. That Declaration should have been made in English. It could have been made in English and Welsh. It could have been in Welsh first (still I contend a deliberate discourtesy) but to be solely in Welsh was an utter bloody disgrace. For those of you who are Welsh and Welsh speaking, I ask for your honest opinion on the quality of his Welsh? It sounded to me halting and strained as from one who does not use it everyday and in most conversations? If that is so, I think it makes the offence much the worse. It means a narrow-minded twerp used a language he does not use much in his own life so as to 'make a point' and to stiff the majority of the audience, despite knowing that in B&C only a small minority use the language and perhaps a majority could not have understood him. It is the obverse of the coin the Victorians minted and rather supports the Victorian position. Black mark for that twerp. He did Wales no favours that night. How about a Pineapple Poll?
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,173
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Post by Chris from Brum on Aug 6, 2019 12:35:27 GMT
It's a rule that all Welsh results must be given in Welsh and English but not all Welsh returning officers are Welsh-speakers. And some considerably over-estimate their degree of fluency. Is the order mandated? Must it be Welsh first?
It used to be the case with road signs, after it was deemed obligatory that they be dual-language, that the local authority could determine which language came first. English-priority areas (Powys was one such) would have English above Welsh, Welsh-priority (e.g. Gwynedd) would have Welsh on top. Rather more recently, an edict came from Cardiff Bay, who now have the say on such matters, that all new signs must have Welsh on top, even where the huge majority of locals (and almost all visitors), do not speak or read Welsh. I have noticed that in some areas with low proportions of Welsh-speaking locals, some English-only signs have survived far longer than they might ordinarily have done before replacement. I suspect that some councils may hang on longer than normal to their English-first signs now, there being no requirement for immediate replacement.
The population of Wales as a whole remains majority English-speaking, and this seems unlikely to change. Pretending otherwise is something of a conceit. Nonetheless, the people are *not* English, and would be indignant if you suggested any such thing*. The words of "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau" may be the only Welsh they know, but that's not important - or it shouldn't be, and if you think it is, then tell us all why, please. They are as proudly Welsh as any member of the Gorsedd of Bards.
* Support for England at cricket notwithstanding, though that's a tough ask right now.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 6, 2019 13:12:29 GMT
The Welsh Language Act 1993 and subsequent subsidiary legislation specify Welsh alternatives for all English language election forms and documents. The template scripts for announcements issued by the Electoral Commission for use by Welsh Returning Officers specify Welsh first.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 6, 2019 13:21:19 GMT
The template script can give English first (https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/2019-07/UKPGE-count-scripts-Bilingual-E_0.docx) or Welsh first.
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Post by andrew111 on Aug 6, 2019 13:48:09 GMT
DECLARATION OF POLL Surely we may all agree that for an effective declaration of poll the essentials are An effective accurate quick count. Agreement on the results by the agents. Declaration made by an official observing Good modulation of voice Clear effective diction Sufficient volume of speech Pauses for effect and for scribes to keep up Speak in a mode and a language understood by the majority of your audience. Question: If employing Welsh and only Welsh, will there be any failing to understand the declaration? If employing English and only English will there be any failing to understand? Answer: Yes to the former. Probably half the hall and a large majority of greater audience. No to the latter. Probably not a single person in the total audience will fail. Conclusion: Using Welsh and only Welsh in the declaration was not just a mistake but a gross mistake and a very gross discourtesy to many people who had bothered to stay up and attend. And a known and a contrived discourtesy by a complete and utter twerp. The Declaration is an important civil and political event. it is not a moment for turf wars and grandstanding nonsense by a small-minded twerp intent on causing ill-feeling. We deserved a service and we received indirect calculated abuse causing those of us none too keen on the Welsh at the best of times to confirm our views. That Declaration should have been made in English. It could have been made in English and Welsh. It could have been in Welsh first (still I contend a deliberate discourtesy) but to be solely in Welsh was an utter bloody disgrace. For those of you who are Welsh and Welsh speaking, I ask for your honest opinion on the quality of his Welsh? It sounded to me halting and strained as from one who does not use it everyday and in most conversations? If that is so, I think it makes the offence much the worse. It means a narrow-minded twerp used a language he does not use much in his own life so as to 'make a point' and to stiff the majority of the audience, despite knowing that in B&C only a small minority use the language and perhaps a majority could not have understood him. It is the obverse of the coin the Victorians minted and rather supports the Victorian position. Black mark for that twerp. He did Wales no favours that night. I think you have gone way over the top there Carlton. He got flustered and made a mistake. He was not trying to offend anyone. Time to move on
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Aug 6, 2019 15:20:11 GMT
It's a rule that all Welsh results must be given in Welsh and English but not all Welsh returning officers are Welsh-speakers. And some considerably over-estimate their degree of fluency. Is the order mandated? Must it be Welsh first?
It used to be the case with road signs, after it was deemed obligatory that they be dual-language, that the local authority could determine which language came first. English-priority areas (Powys was one such) would have English above Welsh, Welsh-priority (e.g. Gwynedd) would have Welsh on top. Rather more recently, an edict came from Cardiff Bay, who now have the say on such matters, that all new signs must have Welsh on top, even where the huge majority of locals (and almost all visitors), do not speak or read Welsh. I have noticed that in some areas with low proportions of Welsh-speaking locals, some English-only signs have survived far longer than they might ordinarily have done before replacement. I suspect that some councils may hang on longer than normal to their English-first signs now, there being no requirement for immediate replacement.
The population of Wales as a whole remains majority English-speaking, and this seems unlikely to change. Pretending otherwise is something of a conceit. Nonetheless, the people are *not* English, and would be indignant if you suggested any such thing*. The words of "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau" may be the only Welsh they know, but that's not important - or it shouldn't be, and if you think it is, then tell us all why, please. They are as proudly Welsh as any member of the Gorsedd of Bards.
* Support for England at cricket notwithstanding, though that's a tough ask right now.
I think having an order mandated is better, it makes things more predictable for drivers.
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,051
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Post by peterl on Aug 6, 2019 15:20:53 GMT
Why not have wider signs and put the English and Welsh side by side?
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,173
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Post by Chris from Brum on Aug 6, 2019 15:40:35 GMT
Is the order mandated? Must it be Welsh first?
It used to be the case with road signs, after it was deemed obligatory that they be dual-language, that the local authority could determine which language came first. English-priority areas (Powys was one such) would have English above Welsh, Welsh-priority (e.g. Gwynedd) would have Welsh on top. Rather more recently, an edict came from Cardiff Bay, who now have the say on such matters, that all new signs must have Welsh on top, even where the huge majority of locals (and almost all visitors), do not speak or read Welsh. I have noticed that in some areas with low proportions of Welsh-speaking locals, some English-only signs have survived far longer than they might ordinarily have done before replacement. I suspect that some councils may hang on longer than normal to their English-first signs now, there being no requirement for immediate replacement.
The population of Wales as a whole remains majority English-speaking, and this seems unlikely to change. Pretending otherwise is something of a conceit. Nonetheless, the people are *not* English, and would be indignant if you suggested any such thing*. The words of "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau" may be the only Welsh they know, but that's not important - or it shouldn't be, and if you think it is, then tell us all why, please. They are as proudly Welsh as any member of the Gorsedd of Bards.
* Support for England at cricket notwithstanding, though that's a tough ask right now.
I think having an order mandated is better, it makes things more predictable for drivers. Scottish Gaelic has recently started appearing on signs north of that border (this is not always popular, particularly in areas where Gaelic has either never been spoken or not for many centuries). It is given a different colour from English - yellow on signs with a blue or green background, green on signs with a white background. That might be better for Welsh. As it is, if you don't know that Swansea and Abertawe are the same city, you might think they were two different places (and there are plenty of other examples of this sort of thing).
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,051
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Post by peterl on Aug 6, 2019 15:41:23 GMT
Why not have wider signs and put the English and Welsh side by side? Why not opt for Clarity Common sense Not confusing people Avoiding accidents Simplicity And just use bloody English and stop being fucking daft prats for absolutely no purpose whatever. Go on, tell me there are confused Welsh drivers that cannot cope with signs in English. Well are there? But then we wouldn't have had this gem news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,173
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Post by Chris from Brum on Aug 6, 2019 15:42:55 GMT
Why not have wider signs and put the English and Welsh side by side? Why not opt for Clarity Common sense Not confusing people Avoiding accidents Simplicity And just use bloody English and stop being fucking daft prats for absolutely no purpose whatever. Go on, tell me there are confused Welsh drivers that cannot cope with signs in English. Well are there? Do that and members of Meibion Glyndwr will get the spray paint out and then nobody will know where they are going. I think we need to accept that in Wales, Welsh will be on the road signs, for political reasons perhaps rather than reasons of road safety or navigation, but that's how it is.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 6, 2019 16:05:12 GMT
It's a rule that all Welsh results must be given in Welsh and English but not all Welsh returning officers are Welsh-speakers. And some considerably over-estimate their degree of fluency. There’s that great TV moment on the BBC’s coverage of the 1998 Welsh referendum when everything hung on the last declaration and Huw Edwards is translating from Welsh to English faster than the Returning Officer can read the same. I once attended a concert compered by Huw Edwards. His seamless movement between two languages was impressive. A bit like being at home ... (We were in London.)
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 6, 2019 16:08:26 GMT
Welsh numbers are not difficult to translate; they are grammatically the same as in English. I picked it up quite quickly when watching the 1997 referendum. Depends what form of numbering the reader chooses to use. Most will use the simpler form; some will use the older, complex and - arguably - more correct version. "Nineteen thousand" can be "Undeg Naw mil" [One ten and nine thousand] or "Pedair mil ar bumtheg" [Four thousands and fiftenn].
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 6, 2019 16:13:28 GMT
Why not have wider signs and put the English and Welsh side by side? Why not opt for Clarity Common sense Not confusing people Avoiding accidents Simplicity And just use bloody English and stop being fucking daft prats for absolutely no purpose whatever. Go on, tell me there are confused Welsh drivers that cannot cope with signs in English. Well are there? If the vast majority of local people know the place as "Porthaethwy" why not put it on the road signs?
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Post by andrew111 on Aug 6, 2019 17:43:17 GMT
I think you have gone way over the top there Carlton. He got flustered and made a mistake. He was not trying to offend anyone. Time to move on What do you mean "Got flustered...."? He is the sodding Lord Lieutenant and has no business in that position if he can't do a very simple job of reading out a result. It was not a 5th Form girl prefect overawed by the occasion and wishing she had not said 'Yes' when asked. He should have run through it and practised before a mirror and his wife if he did not feel competent and confident. It is not a case of 'moving on'. He is an appointed high official and completely fouled up on a simple occasion and he must take the deserved flak. If I had that job it would have been done firmly and competentently, so shoulf he have done. I said he was incompetent myself on Friday Carlton. You are implying he did it deliberately. He has been appointed to a ceremonial role, a throwback to times now irrelevant to the modern world but anachronistically charming for tourists. His mistake made no objective difference whatsoever to people's lives. Why dont we discuss Boris Johnson instead? He is gaffe-prone, incompetent and a laughing stock the world over. But what he does makes a difference to all our lives
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Post by pepperminttea on Aug 6, 2019 17:47:23 GMT
This. The Tory result was better than I was expecting probably because people seem to be willing to give Boris a chance at the moment (as they usually do with a new PM). However he's going to have to make a decision regarding Brexit: either he tries for May's Deal with cosmetic changes which will infuriate Hard Brexiteers and drive them into Farage's arms or he goes down the No Deal route which will push the remaining Tory Remain voters as well as many Tory soft Brexiteers (I imagine many farmers in this constituency would fall into this camp) towards the Lib Dems. I would also note that the type of voters with whom the Lib Dems have made large gains with lately: white collar, upper middle class, highly educated, socially liberal voters are not very numerous in this constituency. Whilst there is likely a fair amount of unease about the prospect of No Deal here and the effect it will have on agriculture I suspect the swing to the Lib Dems here amongst a general election electorate would be less than average. A by-election in a seat with lots of the aforementioned voters would produce a much greater Lib Dem advance (indeed the party might well win a Witney by-election held today). It's these type of places that the Tories should be very worried about especially if they're planning on going for No Deal. The problem for the Lib Dems is that there are not all that many Remainy Tory seats where they are close enough to win, while seats like Devon and Cornwall Nth are more Leavy than B&R. Truro and Falmouth is quite Remain but Labour have got into a position where they are the challengers that can probably never quite win, while the Lib Dems could... On paper this may be true, however given that Labour have moved sharply to the left and the Tories moving towards advocating 'No Deal' it looks like we could well be heading for a big political realignment (something I didn't think would happen until very recently). For example there's a large number of strongly Remain seats in London (both Labour held and Tory held) which if things carry on the way they look to be going currently I reckon the Lib Dems stand a decent shot at winning despite the fact that they're nowhere near on paper. Seats I'm thinking of are the likes of Wimbledon, Putney, Battersea, Cities of London and Westminster, Chelsea and Fulham, Kensington, Ealing Central and Acton, Hampstead and Kilburn, Finchley and Golders Green etc. The Home Counties too contain a number of seats which that the Lib Dems could come from nowhere to be competitive in if they can gobble up the large number of Tory Remainers and soft Brexiteers that you find in these type of areas as well as squeezing down the Labour vote (remember Labour actually got respectable vote totals in these type of seats last time). In Hertfordshire where I live the Lib Dems are almost certain to gain St Albans but in my opinion they really should be setting their sights far higher than that by targeting Watford, Hitchin and Harpenden and South West Hertfordshire particularly if facing a No Deal Tory Party. Whilst I wouldn't advocate abandoning their old strongholds in the rural West Country completely, similar to the point I made about Brecon and Radnorshire these type of places don't really contain many of the types of people who've switched their voting intention to the Lib Dems in the last few months. Where the Lib Dems will have picked up lots of new voters are heavily concentrated in the types of seats mentioned in the previous 2 paragraphs. It would be in my opinion a big tactical mistake for the party not to recognise this and adjust their campaigning strategy accordingly especially as wealthy urban/surburban areas have the potential to be a reliable long term base for the party in contrast to the way their electoral coalition pre-2010 proved to extremely unreliable.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 6, 2019 17:56:22 GMT
I think you have gone way over the top there Carlton. He got flustered and made a mistake. He was not trying to offend anyone. Time to move on What do you mean "Got flustered...."? He is the sodding Lord Lieutenant I don't think he is. Sodding or otherwise.
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