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Post by andrew111 on Aug 4, 2019 13:11:17 GMT
I think the problem was that the High Sheriff deciding to take the limelight rather than delegating it to someone competent. He then froze in the headlights of having to speak Welsh. I am sure he did not deliberately fail to announce the first few totals in English given that he changed to English for UKIP and the loonies.. I agree, and I think the council CEO or somebody tried to tell him as he paused and looked to his left after reading the first candidate as if someone was signalling to him but he didn’t register it. Although according to this Returning Officer is one of his few duties, and his professional resume wouldn’t suggest someone unused to public speaking www.countytimes.co.uk/news/17582534.david-lloyd-peate-installed-as-new-high-sheriff-of-powys/Well, Wikipedia says the returning officer job is normally delegated.. Presumably because normally you dont get to be on the telly wearing your strange costume and have to stay up half the night surrounded by tedious political hacks.. Public speaking is one thing. Reading out long numbers in a foreign language is another. He did not sound fluent but I could be wrong..
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 4, 2019 13:42:34 GMT
Well, Wikipedia says the returning officer job is normally delegated.. Presumably because normally you dont get to be on the telly wearing your strange costume and have to stay up half the night surrounded by tedious political hacks.. Public speaking is one thing. Reading out long numbers in a foreign language is another. He did not sound fluent but I could be wrong.. I think it’s delegated because s/he is Returning Officer for the entire County so usually at a General Election can only be at one count. I think they usually go the County Town or historical towns (I can remember the High Sheriff of Cambridgeshire doing Major in Huntingdon in 1997, and from Major’s remarks was a regular), although occasionally they might go to their home town (we had Ian Dudson in 2010 just before he became Lord Lieutenant although he deferred on reading the results as the RO was retiring (or so he thought) after decades in the job); he read the introduction and then said “I will now ask the Deputy Acting Retuning Officer to read the official declaration” or somesuch. This is a genuine question, what’s the proportion of Welsh speakers In Montgomeryshire, and would he have to have a working knowledge as a headteacher and magistrate there?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 4, 2019 13:59:23 GMT
It's one of the things that is a legacy of the difference between county and borough constituency. The formal RO of a borough constituency is the Mayor of the borough/city which conducts the election; in a county constituency it is the High Sheriff of the County.
The acting Returning Officer is the officer actually responsible for arranging the election and is normally the chief executive of the local authority responsible for the constituency.
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Post by andrew111 on Aug 4, 2019 15:40:29 GMT
Well, Wikipedia says the returning officer job is normally delegated.. Presumably because normally you dont get to be on the telly wearing your strange costume and have to stay up half the night surrounded by tedious political hacks.. Public speaking is one thing. Reading out long numbers in a foreign language is another. He did not sound fluent but I could be wrong.. I think it’s delegated because s/he is Returning Officer for the entire County so usually at a General Election can only be at one count. I think they usually go the County Town or historical towns (I can remember the High Sheriff of Cambridgeshire doing Major in Huntingdon in 1997, and from Major’s remarks was a regular), although occasionally they might go to their home town (we had Ian Dudson in 2010 just before he became Lord Lieutenant although he deferred on reading the results as the RO was retiring (or so he thought) after decades in the job); he read the introduction and then said “I will now ask the Deputy Acting Retuning Officer to read the official declaration” or somesuch. This is a genuine question, what’s the proportion of Welsh speakers In Montgomeryshire, and would he have to have a working knowledge as a headteacher and magistrate there? only 12.3% in Welshpool and Montgomery locality according to this powys.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s27649/Appendix%20A%20-%20Powys%20Welsh%20Language%20Promotion%20Strategy.pdf
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Post by janwhitby on Aug 4, 2019 15:53:21 GMT
That really isn't true at all, and, in any event, large parts of this constituency were exclusively Anglophone even before the 19th century. Yes, it is true and if you are into a bit of family history, browse some Welsh census records. At least the majority of you here have reached consensus on English Nationalism and your 'oppression' at people in Wales speaking Welsh.
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Post by mattb on Aug 4, 2019 16:11:11 GMT
But from the same doc, far higher elsewhere in Montgomeryshire (which was the original question)
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Aug 4, 2019 16:34:37 GMT
That really isn't true at all, and, in any event, large parts of this constituency were exclusively Anglophone even before the 19th century. Yes, it is true and if you are into a bit of family history, browse some Welsh census records. At least the majority of you here have reached consensus on English Nationalism and your 'oppression' at people in Wales speaking Welsh. What we have reached consensus on is the right of Welsh people (not people with Welsh great grandparents, but actual Welsh people, living in Wales) to be informed of the results of their own votes in their own language, which in this case happens to be English for almost all of them. You won't need to read any census records to find that out, you would just need to have actually spent some time talking to people in Brecon and Radnorshire, which as it happens quite few of us have recently, and which frankly I suspect you haven't. I'm sorry if the Welsh people of Builth Wells disappoint you by not being as keen on the Welsh language as you are and having fewer chips on their shoulders but there it is.
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Post by andrew111 on Aug 4, 2019 16:52:07 GMT
But from the same doc, far higher elsewhere in Montgomeryshire (which was the original question) Actually yes, where he lives in Llanfair Caereinion it is 27%, although quite a bit lower among the over 50's. There is no informstion about where he was a primary school head however.
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Post by andrew111 on Aug 4, 2019 17:06:34 GMT
That really isn't true at all, and, in any event, large parts of this constituency were exclusively Anglophone even before the 19th century. Yes, it is true and if you are into a bit of family history, browse some Welsh census records. At least the majority of you here have reached consensus on English Nationalism and your 'oppression' at people in Wales speaking Welsh. What we have seen is that everything about the result was read out in Welsh, possibly excepting two results for the bottom two candidates, despite the fact that the constituency does not have a majority of Welsh speakers, and that Powys County Council has a policy for imcreasing Welsh speaking which you can read if you wish. How that represents oppression is not clear. Preserving and encouraging the Welsh Language is a good thing but imposing it in places that have not spoken Welsh for hundreds of years is not the way to keep people onside and certainly not the way to get Welsh independence, if that is what you want.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 4, 2019 18:38:06 GMT
That really isn't true at all, and, in any event, large parts of this constituency were exclusively Anglophone even before the 19th century. Yes, it is true and if you are into a bit of family history, browse some Welsh census records. At least the majority of you here have reached consensus on English Nationalism and your 'oppression' at people in Wales speaking Welsh. Beth yw ystur y brawddeg hwn? What is the meaning of this sentence?
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Post by johnloony on Aug 4, 2019 22:26:51 GMT
Public speaking is one thing. Reading out long numbers in a foreign language is another. He did not sound fluent but I could be wrong.. I think he was fluent. He read out the preliminary bla-bla-bla fluently, and he sounded fluent to me. For example, he got the correct genders when he said "tair mil, tri chant" (three (feminine) thousand, three (masculine) hundred). I got the impression that he was a native Welsh speaker and that, possibly due to being nervous, he may have simply forgotten that he didn't read out the numbers in English. I think that he may have been distracted by the fact that he read out the preliminary declaration (before reading the numbers) in Welsh, after he had read it out in English. There are only two possible reasons for why he did not do the full declaration in both languages,: either accidentally, or deliberately. If he was nervous, or got distracted, that might explain how he managed to do it accidentally. Logically, that is far more likely than the alternative explanation, which is that he did it deliberately due to some sort of reason of pomposity or arrogance. The fact that he switched from Welsh to English for the final two candidates gives a clue that he was likely muddled somehow.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 4, 2019 22:42:01 GMT
Public speaking is one thing. Reading out long numbers in a foreign language is another. He did not sound fluent but I could be wrong.. I think he was fluent. He read out the preliminary bla-bla-bla fluently, and he sounded fluent to me. For example, he got the correct genders when he said "tair mil, tri chant" (three (feminine) thousand, three (masculine) hundred). I got the impression that he was a native Welsh speaker and that, possibly due to being nervous, he may have simply forgotten that he didn't read out the numbers in English. I think that he may have been distracted by the fact that he read out the preliminary declaration (before reading the numbers) in Welsh, after he had read it out in English. There are only two possible reasons for why he did not do the full declaration in both languages,: either accidentally, or deliberately. If he was nervous, or got distracted, that might explain how he managed to do it accidentally. Logically, that is far more likely than the alternative explanation, which is that he did it deliberately due to some sort of reason of pomposity or arrogance. The fact that he switched from Welsh to English for the final two candidates gives a clue that he was likely muddled somehow. Is the declaration available online at all? Would be interested to view it.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 5, 2019 0:16:40 GMT
I think he was fluent. He read out the preliminary bla-bla-bla fluently, and he sounded fluent to me. For example, he got the correct genders when he said "tair mil, tri chant" (three (feminine) thousand, three (masculine) hundred). I got the impression that he was a native Welsh speaker and that, possibly due to being nervous, he may have simply forgotten that he didn't read out the numbers in English. I think that he may have been distracted by the fact that he read out the preliminary declaration (before reading the numbers) in Welsh, after he had read it out in English. There are only two possible reasons for why he did not do the full declaration in both languages,: either accidentally, or deliberately. If he was nervous, or got distracted, that might explain how he managed to do it accidentally. Logically, that is far more likely than the alternative explanation, which is that he did it deliberately due to some sort of reason of pomposity or arrogance. The fact that he switched from Welsh to English for the final two candidates gives a clue that he was likely muddled somehow. Is the declaration available online at all? Would be interested to view it. This is the best I can find: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2019/aug/02/liberal-democrat-jane-dodds-wins-brecon-and-radnorshire-byelection-video?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 5, 2019 19:09:47 GMT
Unfortunately he speaks only in English on that clip.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 5, 2019 21:20:30 GMT
Unfortunately he speaks only in English on that clip. Oh damn, I assumed as it came up in a “declaration of result” search it actually was the declaration. I’ll look further shortly. EDIT: I admit defeat, I’ve Googled, been on YouTube, The Guardian website, The Times website, all to no avail. However, going back to a discussion a few posts earlier, there is a Sky News video on YouTube of the full declaration from the 2017 GE which was read by the then High Sheriff, so it doesn’t seem unusual for the holder of the role to declare the B&R result, but what he does do is read it in English (he has no hint of a Welsh accent) before handing over to a lady who then announces the whole thing in Welsh.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 6, 2019 11:07:03 GMT
Unfortunately he speaks only in English on that clip. Oh damn, I assumed as it came up in a “declaration of result” search it actually was the declaration. I’ll look further shortly. EDIT: I admit defeat, I’ve Googled, been on YouTube, The Guardian website, The Times website, all to no avail. However, going back to a discussion a few posts earlier, there is a Sky News video on YouTube of the full declaration from the 2017 GE which was read by the then High Sheriff, so it doesn’t seem unusual for the holder of the role to declare the B&R result, but what he does do is read it in English (he has no hint of a Welsh accent) before handing over to a lady who then announces the whole thing in Welsh. Thanks for your efforts in the service of my idle curiosity. Just wanted to clarify whether it was a simple act of confusion or whether the language issue was a factor.
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Aug 6, 2019 11:27:04 GMT
Unfortunately he speaks only in English on that clip. Oh damn, I assumed as it came up in a “declaration of result” search it actually was the declaration. I’ll look further shortly. EDIT: I admit defeat, I’ve Googled, been on YouTube, The Guardian website, The Times website, all to no avail. However, going back to a discussion a few posts earlier, there is a Sky News video on YouTube of the full declaration from the 2017 GE which was read by the then High Sheriff, so it doesn’t seem unusual for the holder of the role to declare the B&R result, but what he does do is read it in English (he has no hint of a Welsh accent) before handing over to a lady who then announces the whole thing in Welsh. High Sheriffs in Powys are appointed on a rotational basis from the three historic counties (Brecknockshire, Radnorshire and Montgomeryshire). I assume in a General/Assembly election they declare there home seat, I don't know where the current chap is from but in a mid-term by election they might just call rank regardless of where they're from. I'm scratching my head here but the 2010 GE in Montgomeryshire (when Opik lost) was differently declared by a council employee. Any one know if the B&R 2010 result was recorded?
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 6, 2019 11:30:21 GMT
Oh damn, I assumed as it came up in a “declaration of result” search it actually was the declaration. I’ll look further shortly. EDIT: I admit defeat, I’ve Googled, been on YouTube, The Guardian website, The Times website, all to no avail. However, going back to a discussion a few posts earlier, there is a Sky News video on YouTube of the full declaration from the 2017 GE which was read by the then High Sheriff, so it doesn’t seem unusual for the holder of the role to declare the B&R result, but what he does do is read it in English (he has no hint of a Welsh accent) before handing over to a lady who then announces the whole thing in Welsh. Thanks for your efforts in the service of my idle curiosity. Just wanted to clarify whether it was a simple act of confusion or whether the language issue was a factor. I think confusion as it seems odd that he read the formal introduction “I being the Returning Officer” etc and the Party names bilingually, so obviously reading Welsh wasn’t a problem, and after doing Chris Davies (first alphabetically) in Welsh and moving on to Tom Davies without giving the numbers in English there must have been a noise because he paused and squinted to his left before carrying on. It’s only a guess but I wonder if the noise was the CEO trying to tell him to do the numbers in English but he couldn’t tell what it was so blundered on regardless.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 6, 2019 11:33:11 GMT
Oh damn, I assumed as it came up in a “declaration of result” search it actually was the declaration. I’ll look further shortly. EDIT: I admit defeat, I’ve Googled, been on YouTube, The Guardian website, The Times website, all to no avail. However, going back to a discussion a few posts earlier, there is a Sky News video on YouTube of the full declaration from the 2017 GE which was read by the then High Sheriff, so it doesn’t seem unusual for the holder of the role to declare the B&R result, but what he does do is read it in English (he has no hint of a Welsh accent) before handing over to a lady who then announces the whole thing in Welsh. High Sheriff's in Powys are appointed on a rotational basis from the three historic counties (Brecknockshire, Radnorshire and Montgomeryshire). I assume in a General/Assembly election they declare there home seat, I don't know where the current chap is from but in a mid-term by election they might just call rank regardless of where they're from. I'm scratching my head here but the 2010 GE in Montgomeryshire (when Opik lost) was differently declared by a council employee. Any one know if the B&R 2010 result was recorded? The B&R 2017 result’s on YouTube, as you can see the High Sheriff does it in English and then stands aside for a woman to read them in Welsh.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 6, 2019 11:41:38 GMT
It's a rule that all Welsh results must be given in Welsh and English but not all Welsh returning officers are Welsh-speakers. And some considerably over-estimate their degree of fluency.
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