Foggy
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Yn Ennill Yma
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Post by Foggy on Apr 29, 2019 21:15:48 GMT
The absolutely abysmal result for the PP is a timely warning to all political parties not to f ucking push it. Even an extremely loyal core electorate (as the PP used to have) has a limit as to how much sh it they're prepared to take. But what should PP have done instead? Had they chosen that pretty woman, all 3 would perhaps have ended around 15%. In order to win the election it would have been Rivera's part to attract centrists. I'm not sure that's how many of us would describe Soraya Saenz de Santamaría or María Dolores de Cospedal. I also don't think the PP would've tanked quite that badly if either of those had been in charge of the party. |
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Post by finsobruce on Apr 29, 2019 21:25:42 GMT
But what should PP have done instead? Had they chosen that pretty woman, all 3 would perhaps have ended around 15%. In order to win the election it would have been Rivera's part to attract centrists. I'm not sure that's how many of us would describe Soraya Saenz de Santamaría or María Dolores de Cospedal. I also don't think the PP would've tanked quite that badly if either of those had been in charge of the party. I think that's slightly un gallant of you, Senor Foggy. 
But very likely correct in the second assertion.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,038
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Post by Sibboleth on Apr 29, 2019 21:36:09 GMT
But what should PP have done instead? Try to avoid being such a blatant criminal enterprise. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 29, 2019 21:44:16 GMT
But what should PP have done instead? Try to avoid being such a blatant criminal enterprise. Spain has been run by one of two criminal enterprises since 1982. |
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 29, 2019 23:28:19 GMT
Try to avoid being such a blatant criminal enterprise. Spain has been run by one of two criminal enterprises since 1982. You seem to have that view of a rather large number of countries. |
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Post by greenhert on Apr 29, 2019 23:29:13 GMT
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Post by notabrummie on Apr 30, 2019 2:59:49 GMT
Interesting to see that one of the colonies sent a representative. They don't like their African colonies being called colonies. I got cursed and sworn at on one board when I asked how a poster could demand the return of Gibraltar but not return the plazas de soberanía in and off Morocco. Their argument is that the Plazas were Spanish before Spain existed. My reply that Gibraltar had been British before Great Britain or the UK had existed. Most of them seemed to know a couple of words from Anglo-Saxon that I would not attempt in public!  . |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 30, 2019 7:21:27 GMT
If you want to be really pedantic, Ceuta was Portuguese before Spain existed- it even has the old Portuguese flag in its coat of arms!
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 30, 2019 7:24:40 GMT
Spain has been run by one of two criminal enterprises since 1982. You seem to have that view of a rather large number of countries. And with fairly good reason. Spain, Greece...can't remember who else I've said has two of them. Japan, Ireland and Belgium have one each... |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 30, 2019 7:34:45 GMT
You seem to have that view of a rather large number of countries. And with fairly good reason. Spain, Greece...can't remember who else I've said has two of them. Japan, Ireland and Belgium have one each... Malta can certainly be added to the list. And Luxembourg. That's before we start on Eastern Europe. I wonder if it's down to expectations? Both Greece and Spain are relatively recent democracies. I recall a debate between an Australian and a Brit where the Aussie said that he found the shock that Brits expressed over things like the expenses scandal displayed that we still have higher expectations of politicians whereas Aussies know they are cheating corrupt Bastards and so don't have higher expectations! |
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Post by mrpastelito on Apr 30, 2019 9:18:57 GMT
And with fairly good reason. Spain, Greece...can't remember who else I've said has two of them. Japan, Ireland and Belgium have one each... Malta can certainly be added to the list. And Luxembourg. That's before we start on Eastern Europe. I wonder if it's down to expectations? Both Greece and Spain are relatively recent democracies. I recall a debate between an Australian and a Brit where the Aussie said that he found the shock that Brits expressed over things like the expenses scandal displayed that we still have higher expectations of politicians whereas Aussies know they are cheating corrupt Bastards and so don't have higher expectations!
It only goes to show that expectation management skills still leave a lot to be desired in the UK  |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 30, 2019 9:46:30 GMT
And with fairly good reason. Spain, Greece...can't remember who else I've said has two of them. Japan, Ireland and Belgium have one each... Malta can certainly be added to the list. And Luxembourg. That's before we start on Eastern Europe. I wonder if it's down to expectations? Both Greece and Spain are relatively recent democracies. It's an interesting question. Greece and Spain clearly have that issue, but then I've never heard it suggested that the Portuguese parties are particularly corrupt, for example. Belgium has no real excuse- the toxic political culture in Wallonia is the root cause of the problem. I agree on Luxembourg too. The real curiosity is Italy. What emerged between 1861 and the emergence of fascism was not a democracy but a rigged system in defence of the ironically-named "liberal state". Fascism was not vastly less democratic than what it replaced. Then, in the post-war era, there is an argument that the exclusion of the Communists from government and the subsequent eternal DC rule led to people trying to do deals with the other parties in the knowledge that the government would effectively never be voted out. If the Historic Compromise had managed to survive, rather than be brought down by the twin factors of the DC's internal battles and the Red Brigades' decision to murder a few PCI members as well as Moro, Italy might look very different today. |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Apr 30, 2019 11:45:46 GMT
If you're willing and eager to do a deal with the Francoist right, you're not a liberal in any meaningful sense. Ah, but look at the use of the term "Liberal" in the context of Spanish (and indeed Spanish American) history since 1808. On this point, note C's worst three provinces were the three in the Basque Country. |
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Post by polaris on Apr 30, 2019 12:33:51 GMT
If you're willing and eager to do a deal with the Francoist right, you're not a liberal in any meaningful sense. Ah, but look at the use of the term "Liberal" in the context of Spanish (and indeed Spanish American) history since 1808. On this point, note C's worst three provinces were the three in the Basque Country. They utterly bombed in Navarre too. C's fought Navarra as part of the 'Navarra Plus' joint list with the UPN and PP. The list got two seats and won the popular vote. |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Apr 30, 2019 13:30:22 GMT
Ah, but look at the use of the term "Liberal" in the context of Spanish (and indeed Spanish American) history since 1808. On this point, note C's worst three provinces were the three in the Basque Country. They utterly bombed in Navarre too. C's fought Navarra as part of the 'Navarra Plus' joint list with the UPN and PP. The list got two seats and won the popular vote. Oh yes. I was looking at Vox's numbers there (who did flop here) and got confused. Still the three main parties of the right got about a third of the vote in Navarre, an unusually poor performance. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 30, 2019 15:54:54 GMT
C's fought Navarra as part of the 'Navarra Plus' joint list with the UPN and PP. The list got two seats and won the popular vote. Oh yes. I was looking at Vox's numbers there (who did flop here) and got confused. Still the three main parties of the right got about a third of the vote in Navarre, an unusually poor performance. In fairness, success in Navarre has historically led to control of Paris not Madrid! |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Apr 30, 2019 17:30:33 GMT
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therealriga
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Post by therealriga on Apr 30, 2019 20:13:20 GMT
Development of regions and provinces (without seatless parties and PRC):  Call me dim, but what do those figures refer to? Development of what? |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Apr 30, 2019 22:12:40 GMT
Development of regions and provinces (without seatless parties and PRC): Call me dim, but what do those figures refer to? Development of what? These tables were published here - before the election took place, few pages ago - first with an explanation and then with EXCEL-tables showing all the numbers they are based on: Not the swings, but the trends (= deviations of NationalAverage) of the 2 blocs (Right-minus-Left), one time with, one time without including regionalist parties (2019: Left: PSOE+UP, LeftRegionalists: ERC+EHBildu+Compromis; Right: PP+Cs+Vox+NAplis, RightRegionalists: JxC+PNV+CCa; not included: PRC and all parties without seats). |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on May 6, 2019 13:52:07 GMT
How different maps can look like:   At least in Huelva-Sevilla at least one of these must be wrong. |
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