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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 30, 2019 22:54:11 GMT
Putting Vox in power was tried. It was called the NSDAP. They are probably a lot closer to the latter-day DVNP. The line should be drawn well before that, of course. Whilst I take your point, the DNVP were nowhere near as extreme as portrayed. After all, the DNVP legacy basically emerged as part of the CDU and the FDP. And it must be remembered that the non-Nazi politician most at fault for bringing Hitler to power was a member of Zentrum. The AfD are probably DVP/DNVP borderline. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 30, 2019 22:57:10 GMT
They are probably a lot closer to the latter-day DVNP. The line should be drawn well before that, of course. Whilst I take your point, the DNVP were nowhere near as extreme as portrayed. After all, the DNVP legacy basically emerged as part of the CDU and the FDP. And it must be remembered that the non-Nazi politician most at fault for bringing Hitler to power was a member of Zentrum. The AfD are probably DVP/DNVP borderline. That depends on the point at which you take their political temperature. IMO they only moderated meaningfully once it dawned on them, far too late, that their partners were going to monopolise power. All the same, I suppose I picked them because their economic stance is closer to Vox's than the NSDAP's was out of power. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,952
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 31, 2019 13:40:06 GMT
Not denying that such "lazy" comparisons can be and are made, but Vox are far-right on any reasonable definition.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 31, 2019 13:56:31 GMT
Not denying that such "lazy" comparisons can be and are made, but Vox are far-right on any reasonable definition. So? The extremes are on the rise at the present, you know that more than most being in the organisation you are. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,021
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Post by Khunanup on Nov 2, 2019 18:34:31 GMT
Vox are nutters. With unsavoury friends. I know. Look, I'm going to be brutally honest DW. I want Catalan seperatism crushed lest it provide inspiration in Scotland and I want the migration crisis dealt with forthwith as it's beginning to undermine people's faith in democracy and give rise to totalitarian instincts. We've seen this movie before and we know where it ends, so we must deal with the problem. The centre wants to prop up Haftar and Erdogan and the left want to open the borders and just let regions fly off of countries as they please. That would be a disaster and we both know it. The best hope to deal with these in the Spanish context is a PP government with Vox on their tail. Yet you are a member and solid supporter of the Conservative & [no longer] Unionist Party who is hell bent on pursuing policies, especially around Brexit, that will at best put the UK under massive strain and at worst has already broken its back. And your solution is embrace fascists... |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 2, 2019 19:47:17 GMT
I know. Look, I'm going to be brutally honest DW. I want Catalan seperatism crushed lest it provide inspiration in Scotland and I want the migration crisis dealt with forthwith as it's beginning to undermine people's faith in democracy and give rise to totalitarian instincts. We've seen this movie before and we know where it ends, so we must deal with the problem. The centre wants to prop up Haftar and Erdogan and the left want to open the borders and just let regions fly off of countries as they please. That would be a disaster and we both know it. The best hope to deal with these in the Spanish context is a PP government with Vox on their tail. Yet you are a member and solid supporter of the Conservative & [no longer] Unionist Party who is hell bent on pursuing policies, especially around Brexit, that will at best put the UK under massive strain and at worst has already broken its back. And your solution is embrace fascists... No. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,021
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Post by Khunanup on Nov 2, 2019 19:49:28 GMT
Yet you are a member and solid supporter of the Conservative & [no longer] Unionist Party who is hell bent on pursuing policies, especially around Brexit, that will at best put the UK under massive strain and at worst has already broken its back. And your solution is embrace fascists... No. I'm stating an objective fact, you can't disagree with it though feel free to justify it. Please. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 2, 2019 19:51:51 GMT
I'm stating an objective fact, you can't disagree with it though feel free to justify it. Please. You're not. I want Vox to be in a reasonable position in the Cortes Generales in order to give voice to very real concerns about the migrant influx. That doesn't make me a fascist, nor am I embracing them. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,021
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Post by Khunanup on Nov 2, 2019 20:14:16 GMT
I'm stating an objective fact, you can't disagree with it though feel free to justify it. Please. You're not. I want Vox to be in a reasonable position in the Cortes Generales in order to give voice to very real concerns about the migrant influx. That doesn't make me a fascist, nor am I embracing them. Do you want a spade with that? |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312 
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Post by maxque on Nov 3, 2019 0:34:18 GMT
I'm stating an objective fact, you can't disagree with it though feel free to justify it. Please. You're not. I want Vox to be in a reasonable position in the Cortes Generales in order to give voice to very real concerns about the migrant influx. That doesn't make me a fascist, nor am I embracing them. But you want fascists to decide immigration policy. |
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WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,276
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Post by WJ on Nov 3, 2019 9:12:03 GMT
I'm stating an objective fact, you can't disagree with it though feel free to justify it. Please. You're not. I want Vox to be in a reasonable position in the Cortes Generales in order to give voice to very real concerns about the migrant influx. That doesn't make me a fascist, nor am I embracing them. Again, this is a lazy attempt, assuming that Vox is just another right wing outfit, like further north in Europe. It absolutely is not, and it is baffling to me that a gay person could ever want a party like this even close to sniffing power- or for that matter, a Jewish person! With one hand they purport to be strong defenders of Israel but with the other they evoke dogwhistle antisemitic tropes that suggest a global Jewish conspiracy, lead by Soros, is responsible for Spanish ills, such as Catalan separatism. The only immigrants that Vox dont want are Islamic ones. They actually want to encourage migration from former colonies. (though I suspect that wouldn't include Equatorial Guinea, and gosh- I just can't think why...). This is one of their main pillars. The other is the development of a socially conservative, Catholic reconstruction. Anti-discrimination laws would be gutted, including gender violence laws, employment and parental leave laws and LGBT protections and a revocation of same-sex marriage. |
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WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,276
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Post by WJ on Nov 3, 2019 9:19:58 GMT
Vox are nutters. With unsavoury friends. I know. Look, I'm going to be brutally honest DW. I want Catalan seperatism crushed lest it provide inspiration in Scotland and I want the migration crisis dealt with forthwith as it's beginning to undermine people's faith in democracy and give rise to totalitarian instincts. We've seen this movie before and we know where it ends, so we must deal with the problem. The centre wants to prop up Haftar and Erdogan and the left want to open the borders and just let regions fly off of countries as they please. That would be a disaster and we both know it. The best hope to deal with these in the Spanish context is a PP government with Vox on their tail. As I mentioned up thread, the PSOE's methods have been far more successful in stifling the Catalan protests than the PP. Going in heavy handed did not work and if Vox have a say in the matter they would go in so heavy handed, that it will either create a Basque country style conflict and/or increase the chances of Catalan independence. Remember the outcry from within and outside the country when the photos of old ladies with bloodied heads in polling stations broke during the referendum? |
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WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,276
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Post by WJ on Nov 3, 2019 9:34:39 GMT
On another note, I just learnt that I could make a new poll and I have done so. Happy voting!
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 3, 2019 10:56:57 GMT
You're not. I want Vox to be in a reasonable position in the Cortes Generales in order to give voice to very real concerns about the migrant influx. That doesn't make me a fascist, nor am I embracing them. Again, this is a lazy attempt, assuming that Vox is just another right wing outfit, like further north in Europe. It absolutely is not, and it is baffling to me that a gay person could ever want a party like this even close to sniffing power- or for that matter, a Jewish person! With one hand they purport to be strong defenders of Israel but with the other they evoke dogwhistle antisemitic tropes that suggest a global Jewish conspiracy, lead by Soros, is responsible for Spanish ills, such as Catalan separatism. The only immigrants that Vox dont want are Islamic ones. They actually want to encourage migration from former colonies. (though I suspect that wouldn't include Equatorial Guinea, and gosh- I just can't think why...). This is one of their main pillars. The other is the development of a socially conservative, Catholic reconstruction. Anti-discrimination laws would be gutted, including gender violence laws, employment and parental leave laws and LGBT protections and a revocation of same-sex marriage. You talk about the antisemitism of Vox like it's unusual. Look at Labour. They have evoked antisemitic tropes with their "For the many not the few" slogan and now their campaign is also based around combatting a fictional conspiracy of rich people to keep the working man down. Sound familiar? So frankly, antisemitism, thanks to our Labour colleagues's leadership, is something I'm used to. It's wicked malicious and evil, I speak out against it every single day, despite the tiredness, but sadly this conspiracist pish that you rightly condemn isn't unusual anymore. So, I ask you a question. You know what I want tackled, can you name someone who'll do it without either opening the border to millions of "refugees", a disaster for gays and Jews, or propping up Haftar, who, when he collapses, will make a worse situation? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 3, 2019 12:59:54 GMT
On another note, I just learnt that I could make a new poll and I have done so. Happy voting! Re-open nominations! |
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,056
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Post by jamie on Nov 3, 2019 13:38:41 GMT
You talk about the antisemitism of Vox like it's unusual. Look at Labour. They have evoked antisemitic tropes with their "For the many not the few" slogan and now their campaign is also based around combatting a fictional conspiracy of rich people to keep the working man down. Sound familiar? What?!! |
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 3, 2019 15:11:52 GMT
You talk about the antisemitism of Vox like it's unusual. Look at Labour. They have evoked antisemitic tropes with their "For the many not the few" slogan and now their campaign is also based around combatting a fictional conspiracy of rich people to keep the working man down. Sound familiar? What?!! It is not unsurprising that antisemitic tendencies amongst a large proportion of anti-capitalists provoke this sort of response in a person sensitive to antisemitism (and you can see an extension of this in Joan Ryan's claim that anti-capitalism itself is antisemitic). It's wrong, but the best way in which an anti-capitalist (not that they'd take a liberal's advice but oh well) could fight it is not by pouring scorn on the understandable if unjustified concern but instead being explicitly inclusive of Jewish people in their political statements. That Corbyn tolerated a growing culture of antisemitism for years in Labour, and denied the extent to which it had grown after beginning to crack down on it, makes this a thousand times worse. I hope this provides room for reflection as to why conservative movements are sometimes too quickly assumed to be racist, and, like anti-capitalist movements, are often not given the benefit of the doubt where grey areas exist. |
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Post by Andrew_S on Nov 4, 2019 15:46:10 GMT
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Post by Richard Cromwell on Nov 4, 2019 16:07:01 GMT
ERC–Sobiranistes
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 10, 2019 16:56:44 GMT
I feel like even we are bored of this now.
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