|
|
Post by Merseymike on Nov 24, 2024 23:03:05 GMT
Has she had anything to say about the change to IHT for farmers? Farmers? Who? |
|
maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312 
|
Post by maxque on Nov 24, 2024 23:08:57 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Nov 25, 2024 1:26:41 GMT
Given the number of deaths and the birthrate in Gaza, the population has gone *UP* since 7th October. How do you have a genocide when the population increases? John Mason has been expelled from SNP for saying something similar, how can other SNP members say their is Genocide in Gaza when life expectancy is greater there than Glasgow and Rust Belt. |
|
|
|
Post by batman on Nov 25, 2024 3:34:24 GMT
Genocide can be the attempted erasure of a culture, not just mass-murder; I'd argue that the Uyghurs are being subjected to a form of genocide although they are not currently being killed on an industrial scale and that there has been a form of attempted genocide in Tibet too. However, not everyone by any means accepts this extension, which is fair enough. It can certainly be argued that Israel is not carrying out any form of genocide even if it is in breach of various international laws, and although they are undoubtedly taking many civilian casualties. I would certainly argue that Hamas has genocidal intent as they do not want to see any Jews living in their region. Not all of their spokespeople are even coy about this.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Nov 25, 2024 9:10:19 GMT
Genocide can be the attempted erasure of a culture, not just mass-murder; I'd argue that the Uyghurs are being subjected to a form of genocide although they are not currently being killed on an industrial scale and that there has been a form of attempted genocide in Tibet too. However, not everyone by any means accepts this extension, which is fair enough. It can certainly be argued that Israel is not carrying out any form of genocide even if it is in breach of various international laws, and although they are undoubtedly taking many civilian casualties. I would certainly argue that Hamas has genocidal intent as they do not want to see any Jews living in their region. Not all of their spokespeople are even coy about this. the "Welsh Not" probably being an example, the Scottish Enlightenment was far from enlightening with an attempted ban on Gaelic Bibles, (Dr Johnson opposed this so much he funded the first Gaelic publisher) Just as the Poll Tax was tried out in Scotland first, so were the Plantations when Fifers were allowed to employ "slauchter, mutilation, fyre-raising, or utheris inconvenieties" if necessary. on Lewis [2] In fact, James had initially planned to murder all of the native inhabitants in order to facilitate settlement, but was persuaded to abandon this plan as impractical
|
|
tomc
Conservative
Posts: 909
|
Post by tomc on Nov 25, 2024 15:20:51 GMT
Genocide can be the attempted erasure of a culture, not just mass-murder; I'd argue that the Uyghurs are being subjected to a form of genocide although they are not currently being killed on an industrial scale and that there has been a form of attempted genocide in Tibet too. However, not everyone by any means accepts this extension, which is fair enough. It can certainly be argued that Israel is not carrying out any form of genocide even if it is in breach of various international laws, and although they are undoubtedly taking many civilian casualties. I would certainly argue that Hamas has genocidal intent as they do not want to see any Jews living in their region. Not all of their spokespeople are even coy about this. On that basis, had the Spanish, instead of actually wiping out the Aztecs simply forced them to give up their religion and associated human sacrifice would that have been genocide? Was de-Nazification genocide? Or would it have been if Nazism had lasted long enough to become the genuine culture of Germany? |
|
|
|
Post by owainsutton on Nov 25, 2024 17:51:10 GMT
Genocide can be the attempted erasure of a culture, not just mass-murder; I'd argue that the Uyghurs are being subjected to a form of genocide although they are not currently being killed on an industrial scale and that there has been a form of attempted genocide in Tibet too. However, not everyone by any means accepts this extension, which is fair enough. It can certainly be argued that Israel is not carrying out any form of genocide even if it is in breach of various international laws, and although they are undoubtedly taking many civilian casualties. I would certainly argue that Hamas has genocidal intent as they do not want to see any Jews living in their region. Not all of their spokespeople are even coy about this. On that basis, had the Spanish, instead of actually wiping out the Aztecs simply forced them to give up their religion and associated human sacrifice would that have been genocide? Was de-Nazification genocide? Or would it have been if Nazism had lasted long enough to become the genuine culture of Germany? 15th/16th-century Europe was pretty bloodthirsty, in the numbers executed by official processes. But the fallacy you're falling into is imposing a modern concept onto a historical analogy. Modern definitions of genocide are intertwined with the concept of human rights. As for the suggestion that Nazism could be considered as a belief or culture, that speaks for itself. |
|
|
|
Post by carolus on Nov 25, 2024 20:03:01 GMT
Newark & Sherwood, Collingham (2027). Linda Dales, Conservative to Independent.
Newark & Sherwood, Bilsthorpe (2027). Rhona Holloway, Conservative to Independent.
|
|
tomc
Conservative
Posts: 909
|
Post by tomc on Nov 25, 2024 21:59:13 GMT
On that basis, had the Spanish, instead of actually wiping out the Aztecs simply forced them to give up their religion and associated human sacrifice would that have been genocide? Was de-Nazification genocide? Or would it have been if Nazism had lasted long enough to become the genuine culture of Germany? 15th/16th-century Europe was pretty bloodthirsty, in the numbers executed by official processes. But mostly not with the aim of eliminating either a people or their culture, usually only a small part of the culture; a particular form of ChristianityBut the fallacy you're falling into is imposing a modern concept onto a historical analogy. Modern definitions of genocide are intertwined with the concept of human rights. It is perfectly reasonable to do that so long as you realise you are doing it. Had Severus lived to exterminate the Scots as he planned it would have been genocide irrespective of the fact the concept had not been defined at the time. Similarly the British empire committed genocide in the case of the aboriginal Australians if you accept the definition batman mentioned (without asserting it) and possibly on any other definition.As for the suggestion that Nazism could be considered as a belief or culture, that speaks for itself. This is sounds like the sort of thing someone writes when recoiling from a statement without reflection or rational grounds for doing so. Is Nazism not a belief? What is it then? And the Nazis certainly aimed making the culture of Germany Nazi and to that end replaced existing institutions or co-opted them. There is no question that had the Nazi state survived longer, and it wouldn't have to have been much longer, then Germany's culture would have been definitively Nazi. Indeed if this process had not been well under way then de-Nazification would not have been thought necessary. |
|
|
|
Post by notabrummie on Nov 26, 2024 1:19:52 GMT
Newark & Sherwood, Collingham (2027). Linda Dales, Conservative to Independent. Newark & Sherwood, Bilsthorpe (2027). Rhona Holloway, Conservative to Independent. WOW! Thank you. About time we had some actual defection post in the defections thread. |
|
|
|
Post by Peter Wilkinson on Nov 26, 2024 15:01:25 GMT
Genocide can be the attempted erasure of a culture, not just mass-murder; I'd argue that the Uyghurs are being subjected to a form of genocide although they are not currently being killed on an industrial scale and that there has been a form of attempted genocide in Tibet too. However, not everyone by any means accepts this extension, which is fair enough. It can certainly be argued that Israel is not carrying out any form of genocide even if it is in breach of various international laws, and although they are undoubtedly taking many civilian casualties. I would certainly argue that Hamas has genocidal intent as they do not want to see any Jews living in their region. Not all of their spokespeople are even coy about this. On that basis, had the Spanish, instead of actually wiping out the Aztecs simply forced them to give up their religion and associated human sacrifice would that have been genocide? Was de-Nazification genocide? Or would it have been if Nazism had lasted long enough to become the genuine culture of Germany? But that's precisely what seems to have happened (though I believe that the penalties for not doing so totally were indeed capital) - the Duke of Moctezuma, the direct heir of Moctezuma II (at least by Spanish rules of family descent) is, as a Grandee of Spain, one of the leading members of the Spanish nobility (though it has to be conceded that the line has been marrying into Spanish noble families so consistently since the 16th century that its proportion of Aztec ancestry is probably by now well below 1%). Having said that, while the genealogical details seem to be solid, the european-style titles came a lot later (the dukedom in the 19th century, lesser noble titles in the 17th century), generations after Moctezuma's grandson had relocated to Spain. At the beginning, after the initial conquest of the Aztecs, there were far too few Spanish around (a few thousand at most, more likely a few hundred) to control the place - indeed, while Cortez had a massive technological advantage, the conquest had only taken place because he had been able to recruit indigenous opponents of the Aztecs. There was therefore little option but to keep a version of most of the existing social structures (including much of the local nobility) in place but with the local Spanish forces perched on top, persuading the indigenous population to accept Spanish authority, and slowly getting reinforcements from Spain (as and when available, though the Catholic Church was keen to send missionaries). So even much of the Aztec nobility, including (carefully supervised) members of the royal family, survived in a subordinate role, and were then often able to maintain themselves in that by intermarrying with successive generations of incoming colonial administrators. The Spanish were certainly less keen on the Aztecs than other indigenous groups, but the Aztecs were the locals in the agriculturally productive area immediately around what is Mexico City. The Aztec and other indigenous religions were very much suppressed by the Spanish insistence on Catholicism, whether or not they involved human sacrifice (and do note that while, on most accounts, human sacrifice was a very visible feature of Aztec religion, it was pretty certainly not the whole of it) - and the Church was quite willing to suppress any aspect of Aztec culture that it thought might have religious connections. Though the Church (and others) actually seem to have encouraged the Aztec language, Nahuatl, to spread because they preferred being able to communicate with indigenous people in languages they already understood rather than - as the Spanish government usually wanted - forcing them to learn Spanish first. In this, the fact that Nahuatl had already been spread by the Aztecs, as well as being one of a group of closely-related languages also natively spoken by non-Aztecs, probably helped. A side effect was that a lot of what we know about pre-conquest Aztec culture, albeit usually in a somewhat distorted form, was recorded in Spanish and (Latin orthography, post contact) Nahuatl works actually produced under the auspices of the Church. This rather went into reverse after about 1750 as the Church lost influence and then particularly after Mexican independence, as successive governments felt the need to prove to European (and US) governments that they were properly civilised states not tainted by backward indigenous cultures. I am not going to commit one way or the other to whether, given the survival of at least those indigenous people not killed by successive epidemics, the effective disappearence of anything much resembling Aztec culture constitutes genocide - it's exactly the kind of thing on which people argue both ways. The one note that I will make on this point is that, on the standardly-agreed definition of genocide (as in international agreements against it), it seems fairly clear that genocide can indeed occur without a single person being killed - mass sterilisation or the systematic seizure of children so as to bring them up without contact with their parents' culture, when aimed at a relevant group, both seem to be clear cases of genocide. Beyond that, arguments get less clear. Finally, the Aztec state, in a very different (though distinctly expanded) form, still exists. It's the Mēxihcatl Tlacetilīlli Tlahtohcāyōtl, in English, "Mexican United States", commonly known as Mexico - with a continuity, if one looks at its history, pretty much equivalent to that of the Kingdom of England between Alfred the Great and the 1707 Union. |
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Nov 26, 2024 19:45:46 GMT
Genocide can be the attempted erasure of a culture, not just mass-murder; I'd argue that the Uyghurs are being subjected to a form of genocide although they are not currently being killed on an industrial scale and that there has been a form of attempted genocide in Tibet too. However, not everyone by any means accepts this extension, which is fair enough. It can certainly be argued that Israel is not carrying out any form of genocide even if it is in breach of various international laws, and although they are undoubtedly taking many civilian casualties. I would certainly argue that Hamas has genocidal intent as they do not want to see any Jews living in their region. Not all of their spokespeople are even coy about this. On that basis, had the Spanish, instead of actually wiping out the Aztecs simply forced them to give up their religion and associated human sacrifice would that have been genocide? Was de-Nazification genocide? Or would it have been if Nazism had lasted long enough to become the genuine culture of Germany? The Aztec got where they were through genocide,  |
|
|
|
Post by notabrummie on Nov 26, 2024 20:05:26 GMT
Very pretty I'm sure but there must be somewhere on here where this stuff would be more appropriate than on a Defections thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by No Offence Alan on Nov 26, 2024 20:32:09 GMT
On that basis, had the Spanish, instead of actually wiping out the Aztecs simply forced them to give up their religion and associated human sacrifice would that have been genocide? Was de-Nazification genocide? Or would it have been if Nazism had lasted long enough to become the genuine culture of Germany? The Aztec got where they were through genocide, The last people to commit a successful genocide get the right to call themselves indigenous. |
|
|
|
Post by kevinf on Nov 26, 2024 22:37:11 GMT
The Aztec got where they were through genocide, The last people to commit a successful genocide get the right to call themselves indigenous. Nope, can’t find a single councillor defection in the Aztec Empire… |
|
|
|
Post by carolus on Nov 26, 2024 23:04:30 GMT
The last people to commit a successful genocide get the right to call themselves indigenous. Nope, can’t find a single councillor defection in the Aztec Empire… Aztec Empire, Yopitzinco (1367). Liberal Demaztec to Inca-pendent. |
|
|
|
Post by uthacalthing on Nov 26, 2024 23:43:38 GMT
Given the number of deaths and the birthrate in Gaza, the population has gone *UP* since 7th October. How do you have a genocide when the population increases? John Mason has been expelled from SNP for saying something similar, how can other SNP members say their is Genocide in Gaza when life expectancy is greater there than Glasgow and Rust Belt. In short, anyone who claims that IDF actions in Gaza amount to genocide is either an antisemitic scumbag or mentally retarded, or possibly both. |
|
|
|
Post by uthacalthing on Nov 26, 2024 23:47:02 GMT
And vis a vis Mexico, this is pretty much how Britain "conquered" India
|
|
|
|
Post by timrollpickering on Nov 27, 2024 0:01:41 GMT
Have any councillors and/or other notable people switched parties lately?
|
|
|
|
Post by jimboo2017 on Nov 27, 2024 1:59:05 GMT
Have any councillors and/or other notable people switched parties lately? No, that is why we are talking shite and have been for nearly 20 years, the same as a quiet news day |
|
