Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
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Post by Tony Otim on May 23, 2020 17:29:58 GMT
So, new leader same tired old shit then? These Labour on Labour arguments were tiresome under Corbyn, they ain't getting any more interesting...
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Post by timrollpickering on May 23, 2020 17:41:56 GMT
So has anyone defected lately?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 18:55:18 GMT
yes, me from non-aligned to Labour, and Mike in the other direction. I think ColinJ has defected more recently than that
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cj
Socialist
These fragments I have shored against my ruins
Posts: 3,282
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Post by cj on May 23, 2020 20:37:54 GMT
My decision not to vote has absolutely no relationship to anything to do with Israel or Palestine. I haven't said a word about the topic for weeks. Please withdraw. Why should he? He's right. People like you are the worst kind of lefty, willing to sacrifice the poor, vulnerable and working-class in your pursuit of some impossible utopia. You don't care about people's lives, just your own ideological purity regardless of the cost. Worse than those willing to sacrifice the poor, vulnerable and working class in pursuit of their own personal gain or for how it will be perceived in the press? Or perhaps those who would work against a common undertaking for their own factional fancy (I would hesitate to use the term ideological purity)?
Worst kind of lefty top-trumps a game with endless permutations, re-playability and fun for all political persuasions.
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ColinJ
Labour
Living in the Past
Posts: 1,981
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Post by ColinJ on May 23, 2020 21:24:30 GMT
yes, me from non-aligned to Labour, and Mike in the other direction. I think ColinJ has defected more recently than that Nice to be considered a "notable defection". timmullen1, @barnabymarder and I all returned to the fold about the same time.
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Post by casualobserver on May 23, 2020 21:39:50 GMT
Why not vote Green? May as well if you would otherwise spoil your paper. That’s the best argument I’ve ever heard for voting Green.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 21:53:35 GMT
I think ColinJ has defected more recently than that Nice to be considered a "notable defection". timmullen1, @barnabymarder and I all returned to the fold about the same time. ish not to sound as obsessed as Bishop but yourself and Tim did return within 2 days of each other but Barnaby returned in January
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,253
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Post by peterl on May 23, 2020 22:39:00 GMT
Why not vote Green? May as well if you would otherwise spoil your paper. That’s the best argument I’ve ever heard for voting Green. Well if you are going to go to the trouble of showing up just to spoil your paper, you may as well vote anything that you see as preferable to the status quo, regardless of the chances of that candidate winning.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on May 23, 2020 22:54:47 GMT
I personally know two Labour councillors who've had enough and the only thing stopping them resigning is that there won't be a by election for a year (one of them is up next year anyway). They aren't leaving to be independents but I'd sympathise if they did.
There must be a whole load of people across the spectrum who aren't resigning because of this.
EDIT: for clarification, the councillors I'm referring to are not people that anyone would immediately associate with me: one of them lives at the other end of the country (not Plymouth).
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ricmk
Lib Dem
Posts: 2,333
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Post by ricmk on May 24, 2020 0:28:24 GMT
Leigh Wilson and Alistair Bews, SNP to Aberdeenshire Deserves Better. Am I the only person who reads something like: “Joe Bloggs - Grottown Deserves better” and wonders what’s so bad about poor Joe that he advertises that he’s not up to the job? “Liberal Democrats - Demand Better” also pretty close to the cliff edge on that one as well. But no - one else seems to read it like I do?
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,548
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Post by Khunanup on May 24, 2020 1:04:25 GMT
So, new leader same tired old shit then? These Labour on Labour arguments were tiresome under Corbyn, they ain't getting any more interesting... There's a Labour (or is it now miscellaneous lefty/socialist, I lose track by the Left's propensity to splinter all over the place but try to pretend it's one big happy family) room for all their petty squabbling, you'd think they might have the self awareness to save the rest of us from seeing what a fractured, nasty environment politics of The Left is in such relief.
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on May 24, 2020 7:52:09 GMT
I would have thought it was rather hypocritical to remain in the Labour room when no longer a member of the Labour party. I think others who have left the party and have rejoined now did the same thing?
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on May 24, 2020 7:57:35 GMT
I personally know two Labour councillors who've had enough and the only thing stopping them resigning is that there won't be a by election for a year (one of them is up next year anyway). They aren't leaving to be independents but I'd sympathise if they did. There must be a whole load of people across the spectrum who aren't resigning because of this. EDIT: for clarification, the councillors I'm referring to are not people that anyone would immediately associate with me: one of them lives at the other end of the country (not Plymouth). I am sure that is another factor. At the moment it's quite possible to remain on the council and actively do very little (it's well known that all parties have councillors like this anyway)...I thought a lot of people who had planned to leave in May would resign but it seems that they are simply staying put and seeing out their time until the next council elections
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on May 24, 2020 10:41:37 GMT
piss off Tim she isn't trying to weasel out of anything. You've no idea what group politics was like in St Albans. Despite 30 years her group leader asked her to stay not because of hee years of dedication but because they'd lose a seat on committee. That's how much they appreciated her. Can you stop trying to make someone you don't know out to be dishonest about reasons that were personal to them However much your personal feelings are affecting you on this the fact is there is no credibility in saying “I’ve left the Labour Party because of Keir Starmer’s policies” when Keir Starmer’s current policies are unchanged from those of Jeremy Corbyn. For goodness sake the anti Starmer brigade where complaining throughout the leadership contest at his lack of policy positions. Make the argument you can have more influence in the Council chamber as an Independent, that you disagree with the direction of the Group locally as it impacts her electorate, but don’t try something that collapses under the most basic of scrutiny. <cough>renters, Kashmir<cough>
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on May 24, 2020 11:14:22 GMT
However much your personal feelings are affecting you on this the fact is there is no credibility in saying “I’ve left the Labour Party because of Keir Starmer’s policies” when Keir Starmer’s current policies are unchanged from those of Jeremy Corbyn. For goodness sake the anti Starmer brigade where complaining throughout the leadership contest at his lack of policy positions. Make the argument you can have more influence in the Council chamber as an Independent, that you disagree with the direction of the Group locally as it impacts her electorate, but don’t try something that collapses under the most basic of scrutiny. <cough>renters, Kashmir<cough> Not only that, but does anyone seriously think that Streeting, Phillips and Reeves would have accepted front bench posts if the policies were not going to change? I know that principle is often in short supply with parliamentarians, but .... The problem seems to me that the weaknesses of the Corbyn years will persist. Lack of willingness to really get to grips with prioritising, and a simplistic view about big government = good government, which was also a factor in the Blair-Brown failure (and why its not accurate to see them as neoliberals). Of course, they will also try and work within the market-driven Thatcherite framework, as did Blair-Brown, and will fail for exactly the same reason, should they ever make it into government.
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on May 24, 2020 17:55:37 GMT
It does seem to be rather silly to point out that policy under Starmer hasn't changed yet as it is quite obvious that the party will be following a significantly different path under his leadership.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 18:45:41 GMT
It does seem to be rather silly to point out that policy under Starmer hasn't changed yet as it is quite obvious that the party will be following a significantly different path under his leadership. the problem Starmer has is his coalition of supporters inside the party include Paul Mason and David Boothroyd. His leadership campaign was about not deviating significantly from Corbynism to convince the Paul Masons to vote for him but enough to reassure the David Boothroyds too. Which is why he signed a pledge to renationalise rail, mail, water, energy and broadband, and at the same time condemned the 2019 manifesto with all these things as too many big spending pledges. Someone is going to be disappointed
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on May 24, 2020 18:47:47 GMT
It does seem to be rather silly to point out that policy under Starmer hasn't changed yet as it is quite obvious that the party will be following a significantly different path under his leadership. the problem Starmer has is his coalition of supporters inside the party include Paul Mason and David Boothroyd. His leadership campaign was about not deviating significantly from Corbynism to convince the Paul Masons to vote for him but enough to reassure the David Boothroyds too. Which is why he signed a pledge to renationalise rail, mail, water, energy and broadband, and at the same time condemned the 2019 manifesto with all these things as too many big spending pledges. Someone is going to be disappointed And has said absolutely nothing about the market-driven structures which govern much of service provision, while seemingly wanting to increase spending on them, though as you point out, that doesn't clearly match with some of his other statements.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,337
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Post by Sibboleth on May 24, 2020 18:55:20 GMT
the problem Starmer has is his coalition of supporters inside the party include Paul Mason and David Boothroyd. His leadership campaign was about not deviating significantly from Corbynism to convince the Paul Masons to vote for him but enough to reassure the David Boothroyds too. Which is why he signed a pledge to renationalise rail, mail, water, energy and broadband, and at the same time condemned the 2019 manifesto with all these things as too many big spending pledges. Someone is going to be disappointed Not necessarily. It may turn out that the worldviews of Mr Mason and Mr Boothroyd are quite compatible and that the factionalist pantomime of recent years has obscured the real ideological and policy divides in the party.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 18:58:19 GMT
the problem Starmer has is his coalition of supporters inside the party include Paul Mason and David Boothroyd. His leadership campaign was about not deviating significantly from Corbynism to convince the Paul Masons to vote for him but enough to reassure the David Boothroyds too. Which is why he signed a pledge to renationalise rail, mail, water, energy and broadband, and at the same time condemned the 2019 manifesto with all these things as too many big spending pledges. Someone is going to be disappointed Not necessarily. It may turn out that the worldviews of Mr Mason and Mr Boothroyd are quite compatible and that the factionalist pantomime of recent years has obscured the real ideological and policy divides in the party. I'd love to believe that there is a policy platform that Paul Mason and David Boothroyd but maybe I'm more cynical
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