timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on May 23, 2020 10:14:19 GMT
Fine, I can understand reaching that point, and I can see why she’d be pissed off about her treatment relating to the Parliamentary seat, but I’m sorry I just don’t buy “Starmer’s not the Labour Party I believe in” when he hasn’t launched a single policy since becoming leader. Why can’t she use the tried and tested “I can serve my Ward better outside the Party system” line, tbh it would have more credibility. I think you really need to accept Tim that this is how she feels even if you can't understand it I didn’t say I didn’t accept if, but I maintain it’s hard to justify when Starmer hasn’t outlined any policies for her to disagree with, so for somebody without your inside knowledge it looks somewhat silly to put it politely.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 10:25:51 GMT
I think you really need to accept Tim that this is how she feels even if you can't understand it I didn’t say I didn’t accept if, but I maintain it’s hard to justify when Starmer hasn’t outlined any policies for her to disagree with, so for somebody without your inside knowledge it looks somewhat silly to put it politely. I'm not being funny but when you get to 70 maybe you don't want to wait and see what policies are going to be outlined. Maybe the quiet life seems more appealing. Maybe rather than calling it silly just appreciate the 30 years of service and leave it at that
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
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Post by timmullen1 on May 23, 2020 10:31:06 GMT
I didn’t say I didn’t accept if, but I maintain it’s hard to justify when Starmer hasn’t outlined any policies for her to disagree with, so for somebody without your inside knowledge it looks somewhat silly to put it politely. I'm not being funny but when you get to 70 maybe you don't want to wait and see what policies are going to be outlined. Maybe the quiet life seems more appealing. Maybe rather than calling it silly just appreciate the 30 years of service and leave it at that With respect “the quiet life” is to call it a day and retire; serving as an independent, if done properly, is as demanding as representing it under a Party banner, so unless you’re aware of a resignation once by-elections can be held I’m afraid “the quiet life” doesn’t wash.
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Post by Merseymike on May 23, 2020 12:31:31 GMT
Nonsense. Getting on with your role without the hassle of being in a party you have no faith in led by someone you think is the wrong person to take on that role is far easier. Less meetings, don't have to justify yourself to those who will pressurise you to toe the line.
It was fine for you to leave the party when you felt the same. The only difference here is that she's right and you are wrong.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 13:00:11 GMT
I'm not being funny but when you get to 70 maybe you don't want to wait and see what policies are going to be outlined. Maybe the quiet life seems more appealing. Maybe rather than calling it silly just appreciate the 30 years of service and leave it at that With respect “the quiet life” is to call it a day and retire; serving as an independent, if done properly, is as demanding as representing it under a Party banner, so unless you’re aware of a resignation once by-elections can be held I’m afraid “the quiet life” doesn’t wash. I don't know why you're being like this. She's got a year left. No by election can take place. To resign will leave the constituents unrepresented until then. I think you're quite right if you did have insight you'd probably left without little doubt this about a 70 year old women whose done 30 years hanging her boots up. But as you don't you're speculating that for some reason she'd see her year out for whatever other reason I don't know, maybe you think she wants the income despite working full time
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
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Post by timmullen1 on May 23, 2020 13:03:12 GMT
Nonsense. Getting on with your role without the hassle of being in a party you have no faith in led by someone you think is the wrong person to take on that role is far easier. Less meetings, don't have to justify yourself to those who will pressurise you to toe the line. It was fine for you to leave the party when you felt the same. The only difference here is that she's right and you are wrong. Nonsense. Getting on with your role without the hassle of being in a party you have no faith in led by someone you think is the wrong person to take on that role is far easier. Less meetings, don't have to justify yourself to those who will pressurise you to toe the line. It was fine for you to leave the party when you felt the same. The only difference here is that she's right and you are wrong. I wasn’t an elected member when I left the Party and was therefore accountable to no-one and had no responsibilities, being unable to physically attend meetings the impact on me was negligible. I also gave Jeremy Corbyn four years to persuade me, and left on the principle of denying a second referendum with Remain as an option after it had been agreed to 12 hours earlier in a compositing meeting. I’m not sure about the fewer meetings when outside a Group - our full Group only meets once a month, if she was on the Executive or Cabinet she could simply have returned to the backbenches and requested not to be given any Committee assignments, and, depending on their CLP format she could have got away without attending her monthly CLP meeting. That only leaves a monthly Branch meeting at best. As a Labour or Independent councillor she is very much in opposition, although on the District Council she could prop the minority LD administration up as an Independent (indeed they appear to be a formal group with the Greens, but maybe she’s an independent Independent. However she still has a responsibility to her electorate, so probably still has to attend as many Residents Association and other meetings, so the pressure on her time is much reduced. If she’s tired of group politics she should be honest, although as she was one of only five on the DC and one of nine on the County I doubt there was much in the way of “Group politics”, not try and weasel her way around it by clutching at things that don’t currently exist and may never exist. If she simply wanted a quieter life then she should have been honest about it, but right now it is just a lie to say that Labour’s policies are any different today than they were six months ago.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 13:21:32 GMT
Nonsense. Getting on with your role without the hassle of being in a party you have no faith in led by someone you think is the wrong person to take on that role is far easier. Less meetings, don't have to justify yourself to those who will pressurise you to toe the line. It was fine for you to leave the party when you felt the same. The only difference here is that she's right and you are wrong. Nonsense. Getting on with your role without the hassle of being in a party you have no faith in led by someone you think is the wrong person to take on that role is far easier. Less meetings, don't have to justify yourself to those who will pressurise you to toe the line. It was fine for you to leave the party when you felt the same. The only difference here is that she's right and you are wrong. I wasn’t an elected member when I left the Party and was therefore accountable to no-one and had no responsibilities, being unable to physically attend meetings the impact on me was negligible. I also gave Jeremy Corbyn four years to persuade me, and left on the principle of denying a second referendum with Remain as an option after it had been agreed to 12 hours earlier in a compositing meeting. I’m not sure about the fewer meetings when outside a Group - our full Group only meets once a month, if she was on the Executive or Cabinet she could simply have returned to the backbenches and requested not to be given any Committee assignments, and, depending on their CLP format she could have got away without attending her monthly CLP meeting. That only leaves a monthly Branch meeting at best. As a Labour or Independent councillor she is very much in opposition, although on the District Council she could prop the minority LD administration up as an Independent (indeed they appear to be a formal group with the Greens, but maybe she’s an independent Independent. However she still has a responsibility to her electorate, so probably still has to attend as many Residents Association and other meetings, so the pressure on her time is much reduced. If she’s tired of group politics she should be honest, although as she was one of only five on the DC and one of nine on the County I doubt there was much in the way of “Group politics”, not try and weasel her way around it by clutching at things that don’t currently exist and may never exist. If she simply wanted a quieter life then she should have been honest about it, but right now it is just a lie to say that Labour’s policies are any different today than they were six months ago. piss off Tim she isn't trying to weasel out of anything. You've no idea what group politics was like in St Albans. Despite 30 years her group leader asked her to stay not because of hee years of dedication but because they'd lose a seat on committee. That's how much they appreciated her. Can you stop trying to make someone you don't know out to be dishonest about reasons that were personal to them
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Post by matureleft on May 23, 2020 13:34:40 GMT
This is an unseemly dispute. I think we can all appreciate someone's service as a councillor and candidate. We can also recognise that there are many matters on which we will be ignorant. She's chosen to retire and explained her decision in a particular way. It's reasonably clear that it's a more complicated picture (and it almost always is - councillors are very seldom pure ideologues). That's fine. The error (which is often made) is to extrapolate larger messages from one personal, individual decision.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on May 23, 2020 13:56:42 GMT
I wasn’t an elected member when I left the Party and was therefore accountable to no-one and had no responsibilities, being unable to physically attend meetings the impact on me was negligible. I also gave Jeremy Corbyn four years to persuade me, and left on the principle of denying a second referendum with Remain as an option after it had been agreed to 12 hours earlier in a compositing meeting. I’m not sure about the fewer meetings when outside a Group - our full Group only meets once a month, if she was on the Executive or Cabinet she could simply have returned to the backbenches and requested not to be given any Committee assignments, and, depending on their CLP format she could have got away without attending her monthly CLP meeting. That only leaves a monthly Branch meeting at best. As a Labour or Independent councillor she is very much in opposition, although on the District Council she could prop the minority LD administration up as an Independent (indeed they appear to be a formal group with the Greens, but maybe she’s an independent Independent. However she still has a responsibility to her electorate, so probably still has to attend as many Residents Association and other meetings, so the pressure on her time is much reduced. If she’s tired of group politics she should be honest, although as she was one of only five on the DC and one of nine on the County I doubt there was much in the way of “Group politics”, not try and weasel her way around it by clutching at things that don’t currently exist and may never exist. If she simply wanted a quieter life then she should have been honest about it, but right now it is just a lie to say that Labour’s policies are any different today than they were six months ago. piss off Tim she isn't trying to weasel out of anything. You've no idea what group politics was like in St Albans. Despite 30 years her group leader asked her to stay not because of hee years of dedication but because they'd lose a seat on committee. That's how much they appreciated her. Can you stop trying to make someone you don't know out to be dishonest about reasons that were personal to them However much your personal feelings are affecting you on this the fact is there is no credibility in saying “I’ve left the Labour Party because of Keir Starmer’s policies” when Keir Starmer’s current policies are unchanged from those of Jeremy Corbyn. For goodness sake the anti Starmer brigade where complaining throughout the leadership contest at his lack of policy positions. Make the argument you can have more influence in the Council chamber as an Independent, that you disagree with the direction of the Group locally as it impacts her electorate, but don’t try something that collapses under the most basic of scrutiny.
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Post by Merseymike on May 23, 2020 14:15:55 GMT
There is every credibility in leaving a party led by Starmer. I shall look forward to his future defeat. Not trustworthy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 14:22:08 GMT
piss off Tim she isn't trying to weasel out of anything. You've no idea what group politics was like in St Albans. Despite 30 years her group leader asked her to stay not because of hee years of dedication but because they'd lose a seat on committee. That's how much they appreciated her. Can you stop trying to make someone you don't know out to be dishonest about reasons that were personal to them However much your personal feelings are affecting you on this the fact is there is no credibility in saying “I’ve left the Labour Party because of Keir Starmer’s policies” when Keir Starmer’s current policies are unchanged from those of Jeremy Corbyn. For goodness sake the anti Starmer brigade where complaining throughout the leadership contest at his lack of policy positions. Make the argument you can have more influence in the Council chamber as an Independent, that you disagree with the direction of the Group locally as it impacts her electorate, but don’t try something that collapses under the most basic of scrutiny. frankly you can make what ever argument you like because at the end of the day no one else is paying your subs
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,517
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Post by European Lefty on May 23, 2020 14:22:56 GMT
There is every credibility in leaving a party led by Starmer. I shall look forward to his future defeat. Not trustworthy. So you want to have a Tory government until at least 2029?
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Post by Merseymike on May 23, 2020 14:42:58 GMT
There is every credibility in leaving a party led by Starmer. I shall look forward to his future defeat. Not trustworthy. So you want to have a Tory government until at least 2029? I have said on another thread that I don't want Labour in power under its present leadership, but hope that when they realise that they are not able to get a majority, they will finally accept the need for change in the electoral system. Under those circumstances an arrangement would be needed with other parties in advance of an election to achieve that outcome. I would support that purely to achieve electoral reform. Otherwise, there is no reason why I should vote. I dislike Starmers half baked social democracy. As a lockdown sceptic I see Labour having been worse than the Tories, including the left of the party. I'm completely indifferent as to which part of the established political class is in government, and if there was an election tomorrow I would spoil my paper because there is nothing I positively want to vote for.
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,047
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Post by peterl on May 23, 2020 14:48:11 GMT
Why not vote Green? May as well if you would otherwise spoil your paper.
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Post by Merseymike on May 23, 2020 14:53:00 GMT
Why not vote Green? May as well if you would otherwise spoil your paper. If they can give me enough positive reason to do so I wouldn't rule it out. If they would adopt the progressive protectionist economic ideas which came from Green sources but they've avoided in favour of EU fundamentalism....
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Post by Merseymike on May 23, 2020 15:17:16 GMT
My decision not to vote has absolutely no relationship to anything to do with Israel or Palestine. I haven't said a word about the topic for weeks.
Please withdraw.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on May 23, 2020 16:21:40 GMT
In my experience Merseymike has a viewpoint that is quite unique, and what it again show is that labels such as socialist, conservative, liberal mean very different things to different people and it also show again how different peoples priorities are within their views. I might be surprised, perplexed and not agree with a lot of what Merseymike says but thats more my problem than his. I will say this positively of Merseymike position as far as I can understand it, it seems to me to be the antithesis of Oswald Mosley's politics.
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Post by lbarnes on May 23, 2020 16:33:18 GMT
In my experience Merseymike has a viewpoint that is quite unique, and what it again show is that labels such as socialist, conservative, liberal mean very different things to different people and it also show again how different peoples priorities are within their views. I might be surprised, perplexed and not agree with a lot of what Merseymike says but thats more my problem than his. I will say this positively of Merseymike position as far as I can understand it, it seems to me to be the antithesis of Oswald Mosley's politics. For antithesis read epitome.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,517
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Post by European Lefty on May 23, 2020 17:11:08 GMT
My decision not to vote has absolutely no relationship to anything to do with Israel or Palestine. I haven't said a word about the topic for weeks. Please withdraw. Why should he? He's right. People like you are the worst kind of lefty, willing to sacrifice the poor, vulnerable and working-class in your pursuit of some impossible utopia. You don't care about people's lives, just your own ideological purity regardless of the cost.
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Post by Merseymike on May 23, 2020 17:16:56 GMT
My decision not to vote has absolutely no relationship to anything to do with Israel or Palestine. I haven't said a word about the topic for weeks. Please withdraw. Why should he? He's right. People like you are the worst kind of lefty, willing to sacrifice the poor, vulnerable and working-class in your pursuit of some impossible utopia. You don't care about people's lives, just your own ideological purity regardless of the cost. I was talking about the reference to Israel and Palestine. As for the rest kid yourself that right wing Labour is better than Tory all you want. I resigned from Labour in 2003 because it isn't. I made it clear I'd do the same if Starmer was elected. That's what I've done. I don't think a Starmer Government would do anything other than fail to do what is required. "Social democracy" under the Thatcherite framework/settlement won't work. So I'm not voting for it.
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