polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,259
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Post by polupolu on Sept 2, 2024 16:12:54 GMT
A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. I know Change UK started out as “The Independent Group”, but that was one sign that they didn’t know what they were doing. It sounds more like necessary admin rather than a ploy to create a new Party. Parliament works better with organised groups than individuals. Is there Short money if they form a group?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Sept 2, 2024 16:24:12 GMT
It sounds more like necessary admin rather than a ploy to create a new Party. Parliament works better with organised groups than individuals. Is there Short money if they form a group? No. The allocation is based on the party for which MPs were elected.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,759
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 2, 2024 16:30:58 GMT
Is there Short money if they form a group? No. The allocation is based on the party for which MPs were elected. The rules were clearly drafted by someone with an entertainingly cynical mind.
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,580
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Post by john07 on Sept 2, 2024 16:31:20 GMT
Is there Short money if they form a group? No. The allocation is based on the party for which MPs were elected. Corbyn Short changed.
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 2, 2024 16:39:56 GMT
A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. British terror laws presumably stop them from having the name they should have. Israeli apartheid?
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,849
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Post by YL on Sept 2, 2024 18:21:59 GMT
Please only call politicians Islamists if you have good reason to think that they actually are. In the broader sense of basically Islamic identity politics, I would say that all the Gaza independents are quite clearly Islamists. In the narrower sense of advocating for Islamic religious policies to be codified in law, that I do not have evidence of. And that's something a spectrum. I would argue that those are two quite different things, that as such we should be referring to them using different terms, and that it is distinctly unhelpful to confuse them. (And that to me "Islamist" refers to the second.) For comparison, Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland clearly function to a considerable extent as a Catholic identity party, but they are equally clearly not a party of Catholic theocracy. Now, I'm not a great fan of this sort of identity politics (to make the NI comparison again, I have described myself in the past as "genepool Alliance") but I would point out that one context where it arises if the community in question feels itself marginalised. And my impression is that there is a continual air of hostility to Muslims coming from some sections of the media and to some extent certain politicians (though I think the media is worse); if I imagine myself as a relatively secular Muslim with otherwise similar views to the ones I actually hold I can imagine that I'd be getting pretty fed up about it. Enough to vote for one of these candidates? Probably not, but I can understand it. So perhaps the fault isn't all on one side?
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aargauer
Conservative
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Post by aargauer on Sept 2, 2024 18:52:08 GMT
In the broader sense of basically Islamic identity politics, I would say that all the Gaza independents are quite clearly Islamists. In the narrower sense of advocating for Islamic religious policies to be codified in law, that I do not have evidence of. And that's something a spectrum. I would argue that those are two quite different things, that as such we should be referring to them using different terms, and that it is distinctly unhelpful to confuse them. (And that to me "Islamist" refers to the second.) For comparison, Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland clearly function to a considerable extent as a Catholic identity party, but they are equally clearly not a party of Catholic theocracy. Now, I'm not a great fan of this sort of identity politics (to make the NI comparison again, I have described myself in the past as "genepool Alliance") but I would point out that one context where it arises if the community in question feels itself marginalised. And my impression is that there is a continual air of hostility to Muslims coming from some sections of the media and to some extent certain politicians (though I think the media is worse); if I imagine myself as a relatively secular Muslim with otherwise similar views to the ones I actually hold I can imagine that I'd be getting pretty fed up about it. Enough to vote for one of these candidates? Probably not, but I can understand it. So perhaps the fault isn't all on one side? They are undoubtedly different, but there's going to be a substantial cross-over where there is active and strong religious belief. To me it's more like a spectrum than discrete entities. There was in Sinn Fein before devout Catholicism died a death in the last generation or so, which explains their about turn on social issues and the birth of Aontu to cover the ground they left behind. You are way too good to ever vote in a community block vote when normal parties exist.
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 2, 2024 19:02:30 GMT
We can bandy about terms like far Right to describe people who express views that were government policy under Tony Blair, but we can't describe someone as Islamist unless they have been signed off by ISIS.
To my mind, for what it is worth, if you regard issues relating to the fate of Muslims outside the UK as the most important issue determining your vote in a UK election, you are an Islamist.
And yes, I do apply the same strictures to Jews. If their vote is determined by policy towards Israel, they are Zionists.
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Post by michaelarden on Sept 2, 2024 19:02:40 GMT
Is there Short money if they form a group? No. The allocation is based on the party for which MPs were elected. But they will get a proportional allocations of questions etc - the same as Reform and DUP.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Sept 2, 2024 22:00:56 GMT
In the broader sense of basically Islamic identity politics, I would say that all the Gaza independents are quite clearly Islamists. In the narrower sense of advocating for Islamic religious policies to be codified in law, that I do not have evidence of. And that's something a spectrum. I would argue that those are two quite different things, that as such we should be referring to them using different terms, and that it is distinctly unhelpful to confuse them. (And that to me "Islamist" refers to the second.) For comparison, Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland clearly function to a considerable extent as a Catholic identity party, but they are equally clearly not a party of Catholic theocracy. Northern Ireland isn't a particularly good model, but yes, there is a fundamental difference between: a) A movement seeking political power to impose their religious doctrine b) A movement seeking political power on behalf of an ethnic community which happens to follow a particular religion And most of the Gaza Independents so far appear to be cleaving heavily to category b). Note that Aspire in Tower Hamlets is also category b) despite attempts in some of the press coverage to try to interpret the Lutfur Rahman movement as some sort of Islamist fifth column.
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Post by batman on Sept 2, 2024 22:41:11 GMT
Some of the people who stood as "Gaza independents" (of course, not using that appellation) are certainly Islamists. But I haven't seen any evidence at this point that this group of five are, in any case. Certainly whatever Jeremy Corbyn's many shortcomings I would not describe him as an Islamist. It's not a label we should throw around lightly.
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,116
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Post by mboy on Sept 3, 2024 8:42:48 GMT
That's fair. Which is why I prefer to call all of them simply "terrorist sympathisers".
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aargauer
Conservative
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Post by aargauer on Sept 3, 2024 9:50:37 GMT
Some of the people who stood as "Gaza independents" (of course, not using that appellation) are certainly Islamists. But I haven't seen any evidence at this point that this group of five are, in any case. Certainly whatever Jeremy Corbyn's many shortcomings I would not describe him as an Islamist. It's not a label we should throw around lightly. The term is inherently ambiguous, and has been used in a broader and a narrower sense, and I would propose that we use: i) soft-islamist to describe the kind of voter who doesn't want to impose sharia law in the UK, but whose vote is motivated primarily by muslim issues outside the UK, and ii) hard-islamist. Obviously there is some bleed between the two and plenty of middle-ground islamists. FWIW I don't think it is fair to describe, say, Sadiq Khan (or any other mainstream politician who happens to be a muslim) as an islamist, but I do think its fair to describe the Gaza independents as (soft, so far) ones.
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sanders
Green
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Post by sanders on Sept 3, 2024 10:24:35 GMT
Some of the people who stood as "Gaza independents" (of course, not using that appellation) are certainly Islamists. But I haven't seen any evidence at this point that this group of five are, in any case. Certainly whatever Jeremy Corbyn's many shortcomings I would not describe him as an Islamist. It's not a label we should throw around lightly. The term is inherently ambiguous, and has been used in a broader and a narrower sense, and I would propose that we use: i) soft-islamist to describe the kind of voter who doesn't want to impose sharia law in the UK, but whose vote is motivated primarily by muslim issues outside the UK, and ii) hard-islamist. Obviously there is some bleed between the two and plenty of middle-ground islamists. FWIW I don't think it is fair to describe, say, Sadiq Khan (or any other mainstream politician who happens to be a muslim) as an islamist, but I do think its fair to describe the Gaza independents as (soft, so far) ones. Khan, like the five, supports ceasefire. It's not islamist to oppose war. It's not islamist to be concerned. It's not Islamist to have compassion. Islamists are Hamas, Al-Shabab, Taliban etc. Trust me, my wife is Pakistani. We should use the term carefully. It just trivialises the real thing.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 3, 2024 11:15:26 GMT
The new Blackburn MP appeared to be the most Islamist-adjacent of the 4 new "Gaza Indies", but they have seem to have been fairly quiet since their election.
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Post by batman on Sept 3, 2024 11:43:04 GMT
yes that was my impression too. I am not particularly full of sympathy for or trust of the independents in parliament (none of them in fact) but I am reluctant to give them adjectives which are not demonstrably true, rather than suspicion or surmise. I'd need them to express outright support for Hamas, or other Islamist régimes, parties, terrorist groups or other organisations, before calling them Islamists; expressing sympathy & support for the people of Gaza as a whole is not sufficient, nor would be a dislike of Israel however intense. It is of course more than possible for someone to be antisemitic without being Islamist but I wouldn't want to accuse any of them of that either, except for Jeremy Corbyn (even though he is not as far up the antisemitism scale as some, including his brother). Galloway, had he been elected, would in my book count as an Islamist as well as an anti-Semite, but he was thankfully not elected.
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sanders
Green
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Post by sanders on Sept 3, 2024 12:11:48 GMT
yes that was my impression too. I am not particularly full of sympathy for or trust of the independents in parliament (none of them in fact) but I am reluctant to give them adjectives which are not demonstrably true, rather than suspicion or surmise. I'd need them to express outright support for Hamas, or other Islamist régimes, parties, terrorist groups or other organisations, before calling them Islamists; expressing sympathy & support for the people of Gaza as a whole is not sufficient, nor would be a dislike of Israel however intense. It is of course more than possible for someone to be antisemitic without being Islamist but I wouldn't want to accuse any of them of that either, except for Jeremy Corbyn (even though he is not as far up the antisemitism scale as some, including his brother). Galloway, had he been elected, would in my book count as an Islamist as well as an anti-Semite, but he was thankfully not elected. I’m glad the WPB lot lost. By contrast, Iqbal Mohamed is effective. Adam feels like a solid localist. Ashworth hasn’t taken the loss well. It’s sad, Ed Balls was gracious. Same with most 2015-19 defeated MPs. Jonathan Ashworth gives Chris Williamson vibes. Reflect on defeat and move on.
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Post by batman on Sept 3, 2024 12:30:13 GMT
I would really not wish to compare Ashworth, whatever his shortcomings, to the rabid Jew-hater Chris Williamson, one of the most loathsome people ever have been elected to parliament, even though you were not implying that the former has racist leanings in what you said.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,872
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Post by Khunanup on Sept 3, 2024 12:35:09 GMT
Some of the people who stood as "Gaza independents" (of course, not using that appellation) are certainly Islamists. But I haven't seen any evidence at this point that this group of five are, in any case. Certainly whatever Jeremy Corbyn's many shortcomings I would not describe him as an Islamist. It's not a label we should throw around lightly. The term is inherently ambiguous, and has been used in a broader and a narrower sense, and I would propose that we use: i) soft-islamist to describe the kind of voter who doesn't want to impose sharia law in the UK, but whose vote is motivated primarily by muslim issues outside the UK, and ii) hard-islamist. Obviously there is some bleed between the two and plenty of middle-ground islamists. FWIW I don't think it is fair to describe, say, Sadiq Khan (or any other mainstream politician who happens to be a muslim) as an islamist, but I do think its fair to describe the Gaza independents as (soft, so far) ones. It might be for you but I've only ever heard it used in it's proper context (that of those who want to use the state to first and foremost reflect Islamic values as they see them). 'Soft' Islamists are the likes of Ergodan who, whilst introducing some aspects of Islamic ideological norms into what was previously an avowedly secular state, are limited in their desire which doesn't include an institution of a fully Islamic state (and such 'soft' Islamists are often tempered by nationalism which doesn't really sit comfortably with full blown Islamism unless you're Saudi or Iran for obvious reasons). As for the four indies allied with Corbyn, Ummah nationalists perhaps is the best description. It's not perfect and they're almost certainly hopelessly inconsistent, but it's probably a good descriptor for how they see themselves.
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