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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 17, 2024 12:36:26 GMT
John Mason MSP has had the SNP whip removed over his social media comments on Israel/Palestine. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg791g2z8zyoThere are two odd things about this. First, it seems it was his disputing that Israel was responsible for genocide which seems to have prompted him being thrown out. Scholars of international law would consider it a very live issue, to say the least. Second, what about all the other comments John Mason has made, which make it absolutely clear he is as mad as a box of frogs? I am equally puzzled. If the SNP thinks that telling the truth about Israel (i.e. that it has not committed genocide) is “hateful” and “abhorrent”, and is not bothered about frog madness, then it has its priorities completely upside-down. P.S. I saw the headline on the BBC red button thingy, and I came to the news website to find the full story to check if I had understood it correctly - or to see if they had got the wording wrong. At first I thought they had inserted a “not” wrongly. it's not like the international courts have been deliberating on this or anything
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 17, 2024 19:00:25 GMT
His actual quote isn't that 'scholarly' - "If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have killed ten times as many." That’s even more accurate than I had thought. There is no requirement in the legal definition for genocide for a minimum number of people to be killed or maimed, before it is defined as genocide. I honestly don't know why he didn't refer back to the definition, if he wanted to make a rigorous argument for defining the civilian casualties in the Israel Gaza war as anything other than genocide.
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iang
Lib Dem
Posts: 1,758
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Post by iang on Aug 17, 2024 19:44:03 GMT
Even so; it would seem that simply questioning the idea that Israel is committing genocide is enough to get thrown out of the SNP
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Post by johnloony on Aug 17, 2024 20:41:41 GMT
That’s even more accurate than I had thought. There is no requirement in the legal definition for genocide for a minimum number of people to be killed or maimed, before it is defined as genocide. I honestly don't know why he didn't refer back to the definition, if he wanted to make a rigorous argument for defining the civilian casualties in the Israel Gaza war as anything other than genocide. The point is not about the numbers, but about the intention. If Israel wanted to avoid committing genocide, then it would be doing what it’s doing, i.e. going out of its way to target legitimate Hamas terrorist targets, warning civilian populations to get out of the way before striking. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, then it would be targeting civilian areas and being much more reckless about how many people got killed.
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 18, 2024 1:36:38 GMT
There is no requirement in the legal definition for genocide for a minimum number of people to be killed or maimed, before it is defined as genocide. I honestly don't know why he didn't refer back to the definition, if he wanted to make a rigorous argument for defining the civilian casualties in the Israel Gaza war as anything other than genocide. The point is not about the numbers, but about the intention. If Israel wanted to avoid committing genocide, then it would be doing what it’s doing, i.e. going out of its way to target legitimate Hamas terrorist targets, warning civilian populations to get out of the way before striking. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, then it would be targeting civilian areas and being much more reckless about how many people got killed. According to the intent section of the official definition of genocide ("For an act to be classified as genocide (under the Genocide Convention), it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion.") ,it is possible that the Hamas group could be defined as a certain sect within the religion of Sunni Islam, and that their indiscriminate destruction could fulfill the destruction of a group of a perceived religion criteria for genocidal intent. I think it's the weakest of the arguments out there, but technically it does have some validity.
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Post by uthacalthing on Aug 20, 2024 21:36:31 GMT
Now, on defections. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_McNulty, a man who has the good sense to regard being the Manager of Laois GAA Football team as more important than being a MLA "On 3 February 2024, which saw the restoration of the Executive, McNulty left Stormont "without seeking permission" to attend a GAA match in County Wexford as the manager of the Laois football team. The SDLP subsequently suspended McNulty and he now sits as an Independent Nationalist.[11] McNulty had the SDLP whip restored on 20 August 2024.[12]"
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Post by carolus on Sept 2, 2024 13:08:54 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,850
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Post by YL on Sept 2, 2024 13:35:18 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. I know Change UK started out as “The Independent Group”, but that was one sign that they didn’t know what they were doing.
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Post by sanders on Sept 2, 2024 13:43:11 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616Corbyn is trying to coordinate independents I think. There's an event in Islington on the 19th. Andrew Feinstein (obviously not an MP) probably attends. He's backing the independent Council candidates in Kentish Town South and Camden Square. I am not, and believe these independents should work with the Greens more. If they had done so in Ilford North to try to remove Wes Streeting, they may well have succeeded. I believe a true progressive alliance between Greens and independents will help dislodge Starmer and Streeting, and many others besides next time, assuming it doesn't all fall apart, and it may well all fall apart, because the best antidote to Green electoral success, is often, and it pains me to say this, Green electoral success.
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Post by aargauer on Sept 2, 2024 13:45:39 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616Corbyn is trying to coordinate independents I think. There's an event in Islington on the 19th. Andrew Feinstein (obviously not an MP) probably attends. He's backing the independent Council candidates in Kentish Town South and Camden Square. I am not, and believe these independents should work with the Greens more. If they had done so in Ilford North to try to remove Wes Streeting, they may well have succeeded. I believe a true progressive alliance between Greens and independents will help dislodge Starmer and Streeting, and many others besides next time, assuming it doesn't all fall apart, and it may well all fall apart, because the best antidote to Green electoral success, is often, and it pains me to say this, Green electoral success. Are we calling Islamists "true progressive" now?
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 2, 2024 13:48:22 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. I know Change UK started out as “The Independent Group”, but that was one sign that they didn’t know what they were doing. I don't agree. It should be a five- person group - particularly a couple of people might defect.
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Post by sanders on Sept 2, 2024 13:48:34 GMT
Corbyn is trying to coordinate independents I think. There's an event in Islington on the 19th. Andrew Feinstein (obviously not an MP) probably attends. He's backing the independent Council candidates in Kentish Town South and Camden Square. I am not, and believe these independents should work with the Greens more. If they had done so in Ilford North to try to remove Wes Streeting, they may well have succeeded. I believe a true progressive alliance between Greens and independents will help dislodge Starmer and Streeting, and many others besides next time, assuming it doesn't all fall apart, and it may well all fall apart, because the best antidote to Green electoral success, is often, and it pains me to say this, Green electoral success. Are we calling Islamists "true progressive" now? With all due respect, I don't believe Adam and Mohamed are "Islamists". I would also reject the label of "Gaza independent" for Adam. It's true that Ashworth's views on a ceasefire and voting history as MP played into the anti-Labour candidate's hands, but I think for these guys to get re-elected, there's more to it than just single issue voting. In the case of Dewsbury & Batley, they are just left behind towns that perhaps didn't feel represented. Look how well George Galloway did years before the Gaza war kicked off - I think much of that might well have been single-issue voting, but there's more going on under the bonnet than I think some of the commentariat have us believe.
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 2, 2024 13:50:40 GMT
Corbyn is trying to coordinate independents I think. There's an event in Islington on the 19th. Andrew Feinstein (obviously not an MP) probably attends. He's backing the independent Council candidates in Kentish Town South and Camden Square. I am not, and believe these independents should work with the Greens more. If they had done so in Ilford North to try to remove Wes Streeting, they may well have succeeded. I believe a true progressive alliance between Greens and independents will help dislodge Starmer and Streeting, and many others besides next time, assuming it doesn't all fall apart, and it may well all fall apart, because the best antidote to Green electoral success, is often, and it pains me to say this, Green electoral success. Are we calling Islamists "true progressive" now? pro-Palestinian, not Islamist And Ayoub Khan is effectively a LibDem
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,850
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Post by YL on Sept 2, 2024 13:54:21 GMT
Please only call politicians Islamists if you have good reason to think that they actually are.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,763
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 2, 2024 14:11:45 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. I know Change UK started out as “The Independent Group”, but that was one sign that they didn’t know what they were doing. It's most likely a technical group, something that those of us who have lived in areas with large numbers of independent councillors will be familiar with. Ideologically it's too much of a mixed bag to cohere to any sort of strong whip.
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Post by sanders on Sept 2, 2024 14:22:14 GMT
A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. I know Change UK started out as “The Independent Group”, but that was one sign that they didn’t know what they were doing. It's most likely a technical group, something that those of us who have lived in areas with large numbers of independent councillors will be familiar with. Ideologically it's too much of a mixed bag to cohere to any sort of strong whip. This sounds about right quite honestly.. Just call them all The Squad
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Post by aargauer on Sept 2, 2024 15:06:56 GMT
Please only call politicians Islamists if you have good reason to think that they actually are. In the broader sense of basically Islamic identity politics, I would say that all the Gaza independents are quite clearly Islamists. In the narrower sense of advocating for Islamic religious policies to be codified in law, that I do not have evidence of. And that's something a spectrum. Although I don't have evidence of the views of those MPs we shouldn't pretend that most British Muslims don't lie somewhere on that spectrum. That's not true here in Switzerland where the Muslims are Albanians and Bosnians (and largely, Turks) rather than Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. Britain has a religiously conservative and poorly integrated Muslim population. That is doubly true of those who vote for one of these candidates and live in places like Dewsbury and Blackburn. Correspondingly even if those MPs do not have particularly religiously conservative views they will be pressured to vote accordingly by a quite radical electorate. I'm not trying to go for a juvenile name calling. This is a real issue. It speaks to quite an alarming lack of integration, and the issue is getting worse not better with time. Is that fair?
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Sept 2, 2024 15:19:50 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. I know Change UK started out as “The Independent Group”, but that was one sign that they didn’t know what they were doing. It sounds more like necessary admin rather than a ploy to create a new Party. Parliament works better with organised groups than individuals.
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Post by sanders on Sept 2, 2024 15:53:23 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616All men currently, but Leanne Mohamad got within 500 votes of defeating Wes, so if this cadre is still around then she may join the jamboree if she wins Ilford North. Of course, if we get a by-election in Ilford South, we may get a new addition to this group, since Noor Begum (I believe she is Bangladeshi got 24% to Jas Athwal's 40% in Ilford South in July (a pretty mopey showing for Labour in a seat where, since 1997, you could legitimately claim their votes could be weighed, and well Redbridge has certainly lived up to its name over the last decade. I don't know if there needs to be a solution, but what if one day you have a hung Parliament where Labour needs these people - might the party have desired an alternative scenario where they had been selected as Labour candidates rather than ran agains the party and potentially burned bridges?
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Post by Strontium Dog on Sept 2, 2024 16:04:28 GMT
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) Ayoub Khan (Birmingham Perry Barr) Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury & Batley) All Independent to Independent Alliance. x.com/ShehabKhan/status/1830591591951839616A name like that doesn’t really suggest moving towards being a proper political party. British terror laws presumably stop them from having the name they should have.
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