Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
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Post by Foggy on Oct 29, 2018 20:55:49 GMT
I am not aware of German students being told to report professors whose politics contradict those of Frank-Walter Steinmeier...
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Oct 29, 2018 21:01:38 GMT
It was the scale that changed..... Absolute rubbish. The military regime (nostalgia for which Bolsonaro has based much of his appeal on) was monstrously corrupt, the governments during the transitory phase were as well. The first post-dictatorship elected President, Fernando Collor de Mello, was forced from office due to serious corruption charges, the Congress during the Cardoso years was extremely corrupt and so on. I don't pretend that the PT in government was not corrupt (of course it was!) but the insistence that the PT governments were uniquely corrupt is entirely without foundation: even the major scandal that you keep referring to did not solely (or even disproportionately) involve PT figures, even if they have certainly been prosecuted with more vigour. The PT is corrupt, there is absolutely no doubt about that. But so is every other major play in Brazilian public life, Bolsonaro and his backers in the military establishment absolutely included. Doubtless sound. But surely part of the problem is that you expect a junta to be corrupt, if you support them its because they "get things done." Democratic governments are supposed to be significantly less corrupt precisely because you can chuck them out if they're not. It's a double standard but really it ought to be possible to meet it because a proper democrat should want to meet it. As with the old swamp-drainer, I expect Bolsonaro to be at least as corrupt as PT but his supporters won't mind so long as he puts the boot into people they don't like. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2018 21:12:10 GMT
I am not aware of German students being told to report professors whose politics contradict those of Frank-Walter Steinmeier... It's the reverse at the moment! The AfD are kicking off. There's a Neutralitätsgebot (seems to be no single title) in several Länder where teachers can be disciplined for bringing their politics into work. It was basically designed against the far-left and far-right. It's barely used, fairly obscure, and now embarrassingly the AfD are insisting that it be applied. And as I mentioned earlier, I know of a case in the North West where a trainee teacher was removed from a placement for sharing their political views with students. I know personally of someone marked down for sharing their political views. It should be noted that these cases involved people at different ends of the political spectrum. |
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Post by beastofbedfordshire on Oct 29, 2018 21:15:36 GMT
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Post by slicesofjim on Oct 29, 2018 21:32:20 GMT
'Liberals didn't have anyone to vote for. I'm surprised more didn't abstain.'
'I'm not sure liberals really had anyone to vote for in the first round, let alone the run-off'
When Liberals tell you who they are, believe them.
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Post by slicesofjim on Oct 29, 2018 21:33:30 GMT
Thanks for sharing this thing that definitely happened. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 22:13:06 GMT
I've heard that students are being asked to report teachers whose politics are contrary to those of the new president. Now, where have I heard that one before...... Well, it's currently in the news in Germany...and on my PGCE, sharing your politics with students was taboo and resulted in one person being removed from the course. This has just reminded me of my A-Level Religious Studies teacher, who had a Liberal Democrat sticker on his filing cabinet, regularly took the opportunity to remind us how he voted, and even drove a bright yellow car...  |
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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 22:16:51 GMT
It was the scale that changed..... Absolute rubbish. The military regime (nostalgia for which Bolsonaro has based much of his appeal on) was monstrously corrupt, the governments during the transitory phase were as well. The first post-dictatorship elected President, Fernando Collor de Mello, was forced from office due to serious corruption charges, the Congress during the Cardoso years was extremely corrupt and so on. I don't pretend that the PT in government was not corrupt (of course it was!) but the insistence that the PT governments were uniquely corrupt is entirely without foundation: even the major scandal that you keep referring to did not solely (or even disproportionately) involve PT figures, even if they have certainly been prosecuted with more vigour. The PT is corrupt, there is absolutely no doubt about that. But so is every other major play in Brazilian public life, Bolsonaro and his backers in the military establishment absolutely included. I never claimed the PT was the ONLY corrupt party in Brazilian government.. hey, I lived ten years in Latin America.. no-one there has an exclusive on corruption. The Brazilian Congress has long been a swamp. I was talking of the scale and I stick by that.. If you don't know what pre-Salt was/is then please don't refer to my comments as absolute rubbish. Petrobras was only a large source of corruption until pre-Salt made it a gigantic fount of sleaze.. However, Lula and Dilma (and Temer) were all sleazy crooks... don't take it so personally, I don't see the first two as socialists either.. do you??? |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 23:42:06 GMT
'Liberals didn't have anyone to vote for. I'm surprised more didn't abstain.' 'I'm not sure liberals really had anyone to vote for in the first round, let alone the run-off' When Liberals tell you who they are, believe them. Anyone with a liberal bone in their body would have voted against the return of dictatorship in the second round, regardless of the choices in the first round. Saying 'liberals' didn't have anyone to vote for is like the alt-right crew calling themselves classical liberals one minute and then demanding 'the redistribution of sex' the next. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 23:51:17 GMT
Not an excuse for rampant sexism, Misogny and Homophobia .. Where am I excusing that? The point remains the same- Bolsonaro would be regarded as a crank and would have gone nowhere had the main Brazilian parties not been so keen to wallow in their own filth, some for decades. But there were plenty of other parties, including some which made it to the first round, that should (and would in any remotely sensible situation) have picked up votes instead of him, being 'outsiders' themselves (the DLP has issues with corruption, but they were relatively minor; the other two have very few if any AFAIK. There are more parties like these, too). The Democratic Labour Party, the Sustainability Network, and the New Party, for instance. There were better alternatives even if a voter's main bugbear was corruption; it's an indictment of the voters themselves that these people didn't get far. |
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carlton43
Reform Party
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 30, 2018 0:03:43 GMT
Where am I excusing that? The point remains the same- Bolsonaro would be regarded as a crank and would have gone nowhere had the main Brazilian parties not been so keen to wallow in their own filth, some for decades. But there were plenty of other parties, including some which made it to the first round, that should (and would in any remotely sensible situation) have picked up votes instead of him, being 'outsiders' themselves (the DLP has issues with corruption, but they were relatively minor; the other two have very few if any AFAIK. There are more parties like these, too). The Democratic Labour Party, the Sustainability Network, and the New Party, for instance. There were better alternatives even if a voter's main bugbear was corruption; it's an indictment of the voters themselves that these people didn't get far. Ah Yes! The voters have again failed to live up to the expectations of absurdist foreign liberals. It makes one despair of democracy the way they fail to do the right thing so relentlessly. Whereas in Britain they................Err..........Also fail to engage the attention of an irritatingly inept electorate who reject the obviously superior liberal choice. Down with democracy. The vote is too precious to be entrusted to fools and misfits who vote so often in entirely the wrong manner. We liberals have lost confidence in the public for persistent and disgraceful error. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 30, 2018 0:08:50 GMT
But there were plenty of other parties, including some which made it to the first round, that should (and would in any remotely sensible situation) have picked up votes instead of him, being 'outsiders' themselves (the DLP has issues with corruption, but they were relatively minor; the other two have very few if any AFAIK. There are more parties like these, too). The Democratic Labour Party, the Sustainability Network, and the New Party, for instance. There were better alternatives even if a voter's main bugbear was corruption; it's an indictment of the voters themselves that these people didn't get far. Ah Yes! The voters have again failed to live up to the expectations of absurdist foreign liberals. It makes one despair of democracy the way they fail to do the right thing so relentlessly. Whereas in Britain they................Err..........Also fail to engage the attention of an irritating inept electorate who reject the obviously superior liberal choice. Down with democracy. the vote is too precious to be entrusted to fools and misfits who vote so often in entirely the wrong manner. We liberals have lost confidence in the public for persistent and disgraceful error. To compare Brexit with Bolsonaro is to compare apples and puffer fish. I don't like Brexit, but you can make a rational case for it being the best thing for Britons and/or yourself, and vote along moral lines/in your best interests. You can't make a rational case for Bolsonaro being the country's interests, and unless you're one of a very small number of people who might profit from a place in a regime, you can't do it for yourself either. Voting is a choice. Where people's choices affect the lives of others, and where there are clear-cut right and wrong answers, you have to be able to start calling them out. 'Down with democracy' is the tagline of a small but significant number of Bolsonaro supporters who are wide awake and conscious about what their attitudes mean. You're clearly in the other camp - the blind hateful, although I'll take a wild guess and suggest you're only in it thanks to tribal "anti-liberal" tendencies anyway. Here's hoping that doesn't stop you from eventually (re)learning basic ethics. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 30, 2018 0:12:15 GMT
Where am I excusing that? The point remains the same- Bolsonaro would be regarded as a crank and would have gone nowhere had the main Brazilian parties not been so keen to wallow in their own filth, some for decades. But there were plenty of other parties, including some which made it to the first round, that should (and would in any remotely sensible situation) have picked up votes instead of him, being 'outsiders' themselves (the DLP has issues with corruption, but they were relatively minor; the other two have very few if any AFAIK. There are more parties like these, too). The Democratic Labour Party, the Sustainability Network, and the New Party, for instance. There were better alternatives even if a voter's main bugbear was corruption; it's an indictment of the voters themselves that these people didn't get far. It's a polarised society, ultimately, and it ended up with the poles facing each other. I expected those smaller parties to do well, and they clearly did nothing of the sort. Call it an indictment of the voters if you wish, but that was never a line anyone used when the electorate voted for the dubious Rousseff-Temer ticket, which was so laughably awful. There's something rotten in the state of Brazil when Bolsonaro's simplistic schtick carries the most literate, developed states in the nation by a country mile. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 30, 2018 0:16:11 GMT
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 30, 2018 2:27:39 GMT
Doubtless sound. But surely part of the problem is that you expect a junta to be corrupt, if you support them its because they "get things done." Democratic governments are supposed to be significantly less corrupt precisely because you can chuck them out if they're not. It's a double standard but really it ought to be possible to meet it because a proper democrat should want to meet it. I'm not defending the PT and still less am I defending the centre-right parties (who perhaps deserve the most blame for this: it's their electorate that deserted en masse!) or the wider political system. But this particular line - that the PT is a uniquely corrupt force in Brazilian political history, that the backlash against the PT is primarily a principled backlash against corruption etc - is an untruth and needs to be strongly refuted. Quite so: the objection is not to corruption, the objection is to those people benefiting (no particular distinction is often drawn in these complaints between e.g. senior PT figures looting the public purse and the PTs social programmes in the North East and so on). Politics in Brazil has realigned around its sharp hereditary social divisions (something that was never the case before!) as a result of the PTs attempt (necessary, brave, naive, foolish... tick your pick) to eliminate them. Throw into this situation economic difficulties, the social cost of Brazil's increasingly important position in the global narcotics industry, and the disastrous Temer administration (which has completely discredited the centre-right) and we have an extremely dangerous and extremely toxic situation. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 30, 2018 7:21:28 GMT
Thanks for sharing this thing that definitely happened. As far as I’m aware that did in fact happen. The boy’s family got a letter of apology from the school and the teacher was reprimanded. |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 30, 2018 7:48:01 GMT
Thanks for sharing this thing that definitely happened. As far as I’m aware that did in fact happen. The boy’s family got a letter of apology from the school and the teacher was reprimanded. which school? |
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 30, 2018 8:10:17 GMT
I went away from this thread for a few hours because I was in despair at what has happened, and came back to find pages and pages of stuff and suddenly everybody is an expert on Brazil and has to have an opinion on whatever they have managed to read up on the subject, probably from highly biassed and equally ignorant sources. I will say that financial corruption is pretty well endemic throughout Brazil, as is an overwhelmingly stifling bureaucracy, but those who think the left is more corrupt than the right are well wide of the mark. In summary, I cannot think of a single right wing politician not motivated by greed, hatred of the opposition and hunger for power. On the left, the same is often true,but from time to time there are exceptions- for a long time Lula was an exception but I fear he may have succumbed to the prevailing culture, but he is still less corrupt, not more, than most. At local level, like town mayors, there are still some shining examples I know of, who I won't name for fear of the future. Organised crime is certainly one of the besetting evils of Brazil, and in part the promise to deal with it is what has persuaded many Brazilians to vote in Bolsonaro, but I fear the result will be that he will take control of that evil, but not in a good way, and also once you have voted in a fascist, you are unlikely to be given the opportunity to vote him out again. Remember Hitler!
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carlton43
Reform Party
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 30, 2018 9:20:01 GMT
Ah Yes! The voters have again failed to live up to the expectations of absurdist foreign liberals. It makes one despair of democracy the way they fail to do the right thing so relentlessly. Whereas in Britain they................Err..........Also fail to engage the attention of an irritating inept electorate who reject the obviously superior liberal choice. Down with democracy. the vote is too precious to be entrusted to fools and misfits who vote so often in entirely the wrong manner. We liberals have lost confidence in the public for persistent and disgraceful error. To compare Brexit with Bolsonaro is to compare apples and puffer fish. I don't like Brexit, but you can make a rational case for it being the best thing for Britons and/or yourself, and vote along moral lines/in your best interests. You can't make a rational case for Bolsonaro being the country's interests, and unless you're one of a very small number of people who might profit from a place in a regime, you can't do it for yourself either. Voting is a choice. Where people's choices affect the lives of others, and where there are clear-cut right and wrong answers, you have to be able to start calling them out. 'Down with democracy' is the tagline of a small but significant number of Bolsonaro supporters who are wide awake and conscious about what their attitudes mean. You're clearly in the other camp - the blind hateful, although I'll take a wild guess and suggest you're only in it thanks to tribal "anti-liberal" tendencies anyway. Here's hoping that doesn't stop you from eventually (re)learning basic ethics. You and Izzyeviel just make it up as you go along with claims yesterday that I was preferencing rich whites for some unaccountable reason, and now we have you bringing up a false comparison of Brexit with Bolsanaro! This is just wild nonsense because you are both overwrought by a political event in a foreign country that I accept and understand and you are both in a typical liberal bate about it. I am in no way responsible for what happened, nor an apologist, nor a commentator as I have little or no useful information. I merely stated that I understood the reaction and would have voted the same way myself with my reasons. That brought forth wild frothing emanations from both of you that called into question my suitability as a human being! I dared to differ from your prissy safe absolutist view of how it has to be to satisfy a bleeding heart liberal. Brazil is different and they do things differently there and one must see it for what it is and react in an appropriate manner to suit circumstances. You are both the sort of edgy hyper-reactive and deeply silly variant of liberal that gets up nearly everyone's nose, and I imagine quite a few on your own team? You overdo everything by pretending the world is like one big Surrey and all thinking your sort of thought. Well....It isn't. Most of it is brutal vicious and cruel and crude. We here are lucky but we are the 'unusual' ones! Russia and China, Brazil and India are run and react in very different ways. Stop imposing your silly rules into these arguments with a safe European set of pink glasses on all the time. It makes you look even more silly than usual. Bolsanaro got elected. Trump got elected. Brexit was elected. Your views are MINORITY views and your joint reaction is at least a part cause of those events. You and all those other people like the Clintons and Carter that piss us all off to our very fibre of being. We don't share your views and there are a lot of us. Get used to it as there is going to be a lot more for you to swallow down. Wise up and get over it or you will be in perpetual meltdown. Not that I care one whit of course. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 30, 2018 11:11:03 GMT
I went away from this thread for a few hours because I was in despair at what has happened, and came back to find pages and pages of stuff and suddenly everybody is an expert on Brazil and has to have an opinion on whatever they have managed to read up on the subject, probably from highly biassed and equally ignorant sources. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, and it does not matter if you know more about Brazil than other people or not. After all, I'm fairly certain you are willing to share your opinion on other threads when you're not the most knowledgeable person on a particular topic. |
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