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Post by carlton43 on Oct 29, 2018 16:27:03 GMT
But how easy to say that from the comfort of a long-term stable law-abiding environment rather than in a fearful community in thrall to overlapping gangs and criminal groupings that enter the fabric of everything. if you were there I contend you would not be able to support such tender liberal thoughts. You would vote for instant action care and protection and crave to see the photos in the local press of a satisfying level of weekly body bags as the new man is seen to clean up the worst of it and to intimidate those who have been bleeding and intimidating you and your family and friends. There is no time or place for nice ordered collection of evidence, arrests, trials and due process. At 50K deaths a year it cries out for blunt summary action with a rooting out and termination of a lot of people very quickly in a form of civil war against a known and evident enemy. When the position has been cleared up and law and order begins to be reimposed one may gradually switch to what we here in our comfort would regard as more acceptable. Short term it needs to be blunt force summary action to make a public point and to redress the death toll onto the criminals and away from the public. The death rate may stay the same for a while but it will be deserved deaths of the dregs preying on society. Well, at least your honest about wanting one rule for rich white men, and a different one for everyone else. You make yourself cheap in that throw-away remark that has nothing to do with the election, my posts or the real situation. I have never been to Brazil and will never go there. The votes for the winner were most certainly not all cast by rich people let alone white people and your post is an outright case of NAKED TROLLING. Don't do that. I am not biting. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 16:29:41 GMT
But your 'Common Decency' is bought at far too high a price by 50K others and not by you of course. There is no common ground between us and it is fruitless to continue the debate. You do not have to stoop to personal abuse as to my character. I am very probably more ethical and concerned than you are but less hidebound by impractical rules that blind you to the obvious and the necessary. Note it has not blinded the majority of electors in Brazil! When you make flippant and dismissive comments about murderous violence - the kind of violence Brazilians face, the kind of violence only a minority of posters here have faced on a personal level - I'm afraid I absolutely do have to speak up. Several countries have higher murder rates but a distinct lack of such extreme tendencies in the politicians they vote for. I reject the idea that, on a personal or national level, we become fascists on being exposed to murderous shitbags. The widespread belief in this is harmful enough in itself. The impractical rules are called basic ethics and empathy. Most people learn them during childhood, but a dangerous (yet thankfully small) proportion of people appear to be unlearning them these days. I find the kind of language you're using to describe them pretty interesting, because it bears a striking resemblance to the way two-bit psychopaths in Hollywood flicks speak about those troublesome ethics like not going out of your way to murder innocents or start wars. If you've strayed that far from reality, you need to seriously reflect on how you see the world. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 29, 2018 16:31:07 GMT
That’s unfair. People face daily violence unimaginable to people in this country, their children are endangered and pretty much, in places like Rio, every family has been touched by the violence. Yesterday they faced a choice between a party made up of corrupt former, and some current, communists and socialists, with the glaring example of Venezuela as a neighbour, or they could could choose an, I accept appalling, authoritarian who promises to destroy corruption and kill the criminals. If you were in their position who’d you choose? Not unfair at all. We currently consider people from war-torn Islamic countries, don't we? What makes Brazilians any different in this case? Btw, Haddad isn't a socialist; he's a centre-left technocrat. What you and the other apologists in this thread are avoiding is that there was a whole spectrum of other candidates beforehand for Brazilians to pick from, and yet they chose Bolsonaro anyway. The tired old hot takes about the left just aren't even close to applicable here. For the first time in my life, I suppose I'm finding myself in the 'out-of-touch' camp usually ridiculed as SJWs. I just can't ever fathom voting for a man who promises 30,000 deaths (and I'm a victim of several violent crimes with permanent damage as a result). This goes beyond bigotry, disastrous policies, bad press or criminal history - the man has promised to start a civil war. Over here politicians pledge social security, or tax cuts, or £350m for the NHS or what have you, but he pledges unspecified deaths of thousands of innocents. How am I supposed to relate to people who want to do that? How is anyone supposed to? What I am doing though is trying to put myself in their shoes. If you live in a Rio favella you do so with the knowledge that you could get robbed and killed for a few dollars. Your wife or daughter could get gang raped. You or your son might get killed just to amuse some gangsters. Every night there’s a gang shooting up your neighbourhood in order to continue to sell the poison that’s slowly killing it like a cancerous tumour. Government after government since the restoration of democracy have failed and instead focussed on enriching themselves, you lose all hope. Then someone comes along and promises to, if necessary, kill the people who could kill you and/or your family. He promises to cleanse your neighbourhood of drugs so you can live an ordinary life again. For the first time in decades you have hope. Frankly, when you try and see it from a Brazilian perspective it’s not hard to see why he’s won. You also call me an apologist, that is false. I am a staunch believer in freedom, I’m gay and I despise bullying. I am NOT a supporter of Captain Bolsonaro, I am appalled by him and his despicable behaviour but I will never condemn those who voted for him as they had good reason to do so. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 16:41:18 GMT
Not unfair at all. We currently consider people from war-torn Islamic countries, don't we? What makes Brazilians any different in this case? Btw, Haddad isn't a socialist; he's a centre-left technocrat. What you and the other apologists in this thread are avoiding is that there was a whole spectrum of other candidates beforehand for Brazilians to pick from, and yet they chose Bolsonaro anyway. The tired old hot takes about the left just aren't even close to applicable here. For the first time in my life, I suppose I'm finding myself in the 'out-of-touch' camp usually ridiculed as SJWs. I just can't ever fathom voting for a man who promises 30,000 deaths (and I'm a victim of several violent crimes with permanent damage as a result). This goes beyond bigotry, disastrous policies, bad press or criminal history - the man has promised to start a civil war. Over here politicians pledge social security, or tax cuts, or £350m for the NHS or what have you, but he pledges unspecified deaths of thousands of innocents. How am I supposed to relate to people who want to do that? How is anyone supposed to? What I am doing though is trying to put myself in their shoes. If you live in a Rio favella you do so with the knowledge that you could get robbed and killed for a few dollars. Your wife or daughter could get gang raped. You or your son might get killed just to amuse some gangsters. Every night there’s a gang shooting up your neighbourhood in order to continue to sell the poison that’s slowly killing it like a cancerous tumour. Government after government since the restoration of democracy have failed and instead focussed on enriching themselves, you lose all hope. Then someone comes along and promises to, if necessary, kill the people who could kill you and/or your family. He promises to cleanse your neighbourhood of drugs so you can live an ordinary life again. For the first time in decades you have hope. Frankly, when you try and see it from a Brazilian perspective it’s not hard to see why he’s won. You also call me an apologist, that is false. I am a staunch believer in freedom, I’m gay and I despise bullying. I am NOT a supporter of Captain Bolsonaro, I am appalled by him and his despicable behaviour but I will never condemn those who voted for him as they had good reason to do so. The preconditions exist, and have existed before, in other countries to worse extents without provoking such an inhuman reaction. In this election, there were a multitude of politicians from different parties offering all kinds of potential solutions, some of which were fresh and had not been tested before in Brazil. By contrast, there was already a state of martial law in several cities (guess what? It didn't improve things), and the dictatorship Bolsonaro harkened back to was plagued with horrific violence, too (although its distribution was somewhat different at times). In nearby Mexico, some of his ideas had been tried, tested, and failed disastrously with no end of the fallout in sight. My point is that Brazilians had no good reasons to vote for this man considering the array of candidates set before them. His solutions were not only vile, they were stupid - not solutions at all, but just a worsening of the existing problems, and that should have been obvious for everyone. Suggesting there was a 'good' reason for them to vote that way is apologism, IMO, because it doesn't recognise this. This was really just collective stupidity - triggered by painful circumstances, granted, but collective stupidity no less. |
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2018 16:46:31 GMT
For the first time in my life, I suppose I'm finding myself in the 'out-of-touch' camp usually ridiculed as SJWs. I just can't ever fathom voting for a man who promises 30,000 deaths He said this 20 years ago and the context was perfectly obvious - it was in the context of killing gangs and corrupt officials, and that it would have to be done by armed force because it isn't possible (so he says) any other way. In other words, it's much like when Duterte said he'd fill Manila Bay with the bodies of gangs and other criminals...and got elected as a result. You keep quoting that line as though the context was that he intends to bomb Rio from 30,000 ft, or poison the water supply of retirement homes to kill grannies, or nerve gas indigenous people or something. I can't tell if you're presenting it that way because you just don't know the context or because you're trying hard to portray him as a psychopathic killer, but either way it doesn't reflect well on your argument here. Here is the full original quote, btw: As other are also saying, the context today is a country where over 50,000 people are murdered every year. That's a million fucking people murdered in Brazil since Bolsonario said what he did. Why aren't you as outraged about that as you are about his threats? Where's your history of outraged posts on this, huh? The Brazilians are outraged about that industrial slaughter, and that's why they elected this fucker. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2018 16:48:16 GMT
The guilty parties here are the PT, the MDB and PSDB. Their crookery has laid the grounds for Bolsonaro to emerge. Also, to echo Antiochian, seeing all this through a North American or European slant, For starters, compared to the alleged demography of the Trump vote, the most literate and developed states voted for Bolsonaro en masse. 75% in SC, the most developed of the lot. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 16:55:45 GMT
For the first time in my life, I suppose I'm finding myself in the 'out-of-touch' camp usually ridiculed as SJWs. I just can't ever fathom voting for a man who promises 30,000 deaths He said this 20 years ago and the context was perfectly obvious - it was in the context of killing gangs and corrupt officials, and that it would have to be done by armed force because it isn't possible (so he says) any other way. In other words, it's much like when Duterte said he'd fill Manila Bay with the bodies of gangs and other criminals...and got elected as a result. You keep quoting that line as though the context was that he intends to bomb Rio from 30,000 ft, or poison the water supply of retirement homes to kill grannies, or nerve gas indigenous people or something. I can't tell if you're presenting it that way because you just don't know the context or because you're trying hard to portray him as a psychopathic killer, but either way it doesn't reflect well on your argument here. Here is the full original quote, btw: As other are also saying, the context today is a country where over 50,000 people are murdered every year. That's a million fucking people murdered in Brazil since Bolsonario said what he did. Why aren't you as outraged about that as you are about his threats? Where's your history of outraged posts on this, huh? The Brazilians are outraged about that industrial slaughter, and that's why they elected this fucker. "During the dictatorship, they should have shot 30,000 corrupt people, starting with the (then) President Fernando Henrique Cardoso, which would have been a great gain for the nation" - another gem from Bolsonaro. As late as September, he said this: "We're going to shoot the PT supporters in Acre." His press office later said the latter statement was a joke. I'm surprised anybody is giving him the benefit of the doubt. 'Corrupt people' should be vague enough to put the fear of God into most Brazilians, even if they can countenance simply murdering people to fix problems. It isn't. "Breaking out in civil war" is not something that would make me feel more comfortable if I was under threat from gangs, because I'd look to Mexico, and see just how much worse that could get. I'm not as outraged about murder because murder is by and large (in civil society) an evil act committed by twisted individuals who are condemned by most. Bolsonaro advocates state-sponsored murder, and people support it. To me, that's foul and very hard to understand. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 16:56:54 GMT
The guilty parties here are the PT, the MDB and PSDB. Their crookery has laid the grounds for Bolsonaro to emerge. Also, to echo Antiochian , seeing all this through a North American or European slant, For starters, compared to the alleged demography of the Trump vote, the most literate and developed states voted for Bolsonaro en masse. 75% in SC, the most developed of the lot. We can talk all day about which party could have done what, and I think the PT has behaved disgracefully in the past. Ultimately, though, the electorate decides who leads in a democracy. The lion's share of the blame goes on them, and Bolsonaro voters will get a government they almost deserve. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2018 17:01:36 GMT
I've heard that students are being asked to report teachers whose politics are contrary to those of the new president. Now, where have I heard that one before...... Well, it's currently in the news in Germany...and on my PGCE, sharing your politics with students was taboo and resulted in one person being removed from the course. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2018 17:04:05 GMT
The guilty parties here are the PT, the MDB and PSDB. Their crookery has laid the grounds for Bolsonaro to emerge. Also, to echo Antiochian , seeing all this through a North American or European slant, For starters, compared to the alleged demography of the Trump vote, the most literate and developed states voted for Bolsonaro en masse. 75% in SC, the most developed of the lot. We can talk all day about which party could have done what, and I think the PT has behaved disgracefully in the past. Ultimately, though, the electorate decides who leads in a democracy. The lion's share of the blame goes on them, and Bolsonaro voters will get a government they almost deserve. Well, of course. I won't disagree with you there. They're getting a Poundland Vargas. |
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2018 17:07:02 GMT
I'm not as outraged about murder because murder is by and large (in civil society) an evil act committed by twisted individuals who are condemned by most. Bolsonaro advocates state-sponsored murder, and people support it. To me, that's foul and very hard to understand. When your loved ones are being gunned down on a daily basis it really doesn't matter about the constitutional and legal ethics of the structures responsible for it - the only thing that matters is your own fear for the future of your family. This is what we in the West have no real comprehension of, because it hasn't been common experience here for nearly two centuries. |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 17:11:13 GMT
I'm not as outraged about murder because murder is by and large (in civil society) an evil act committed by twisted individuals who are condemned by most. Bolsonaro advocates state-sponsored murder, and people support it. To me, that's foul and very hard to understand. When your loved ones are being gunned down on a daily basis it really doesn't matter about the constitutional and legal ethics of the structures responsible for it - the only thing that matters is your own fear for the future of your family. This is what we in the West have no real comprehension of, because it hasn't been common experience here for nearly two centuries. These people are responding to fear by running towards the man loading a machine gun pointed in their direction. There were other options open to them - options that might have actually made sense - and Bolsonaro's formula has been been tried and tested enough for them to know how much of a complete failure it will be. Even if you remove morality and ethics from the decision completely, which you shouldn't, you're left with what will surely be a contender for the most stupid democratic decision of the decade. |
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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 17:12:51 GMT
Well, at least your honest about wanting one rule for rich white men, and a different one for everyone else. You make yourself cheap in that throw-away remark that has nothing to do with the election, my posts or the real situation. I have never been to Brazil and will never go there. The votes for the winner were most certainly not all cast by rich people let alone white people and your post is an outright case of NAKED TROLLING. Don't do that. I am not biting. Naked trolling? Not a pretty sight...  |
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2018 17:15:02 GMT
When your loved ones are being gunned down on a daily basis it really doesn't matter about the constitutional and legal ethics of the structures responsible for it - the only thing that matters is your own fear for the future of your family. This is what we in the West have no real comprehension of, because it hasn't been common experience here for nearly two centuries. These people are responding to fear by running towards the man loading a machine gun pointed in their direction. There were other options open to them - options that might have actually made sense - and Bolsonaro's formula has been been tried and tested enough for them to know how much of a complete failure it will be. Even if you remove morality and ethics from the decision completely, which you shouldn't, you're left with what will surely be a contender for the most stupid democratic decision of the decade. Well the silver lining is that at least we'll be knocked off the top spot there then, eh?  (Yeh yeh, shouldn't laugh, etc) |
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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 17:15:13 GMT
The guilty parties here are the PT, the MDB and PSDB. Their crookery has laid the grounds for Bolsonaro to emerge. Also, to echo Antiochian , seeing all this through a North American or European slant, For starters, compared to the alleged demography of the Trump vote, the most literate and developed states voted for Bolsonaro en masse. 75% in SC, the most developed of the lot. Santa Catarina though being also the most German state..  |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 29, 2018 19:29:19 GMT
"Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Europe Elects Socialism or barbarism: that's the choice now facing humanity. The world's fourth biggest democracy has been consumed by fascism and, if we don't fight back, what's happened to Brazil will happen to us all." That's that boy, who was interviewed on ElectionNight 2017, isn't he? |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
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Post by Foggy on Oct 29, 2018 20:01:38 GMT
When your loved ones are being gunned down on a daily basis it really doesn't matter about the constitutional and legal ethics of the structures responsible for it - the only thing that matters is your own fear for the future of your family. This is what we in the West have no real comprehension of, because it hasn't been common experience here for nearly two centuries. These people are responding to fear by running towards the man loading a machine gun pointed in their direction. There were other options open to them - options that might have actually made sense - and Bolsonaro's formula has been been tried and tested enough for them to know how much of a complete failure it will be. Even if you remove morality and ethics from the decision completely, which you shouldn't, you're left with what will surely be a contender for the most stupid democratic decision of the decade. It's a little over two years since Colombia voted to continue a civil war. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 29, 2018 20:14:51 GMT
It was the scale that changed..... Absolute rubbish. The military regime (nostalgia for which Bolsonaro has based much of his appeal on) was monstrously corrupt, the governments during the transitory phase were as well. The first post-dictatorship elected President, Fernando Collor de Mello, was forced from office due to serious corruption charges, the Congress during the Cardoso years was extremely corrupt and so on. I don't pretend that the PT in government was not corrupt (of course it was!) but the insistence that the PT governments were uniquely corrupt is entirely without foundation: even the major scandal that you keep referring to did not solely (or even disproportionately) involve PT figures, even if they have certainly been prosecuted with more vigour. The PT is corrupt, there is absolutely no doubt about that. But so is every other major play in Brazilian public life, Bolsonaro and his backers in the military establishment absolutely included. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2018 20:35:58 GMT
The guilty parties here are the PT, the MDB and PSDB. Their crookery has laid the grounds for Bolsonaro to emerge. Also, to echo Antiochian, seeing all this through a North American or European slant, For starters, compared to the alleged demography of the Trump vote, the moost literate and developed states voted for Bolsonaro en masse. 75% in SC, the most developed of the lot. Not an excuse for rampant sexism, Misogny and Homophobia .. Where am I excusing that? The point remains the same- Bolsonaro would be regarded as a crank and would have gone nowhere had the main Brazilian parties not been so keen to wallow in their own filth, some for decades. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2018 20:36:54 GMT
I've heard that students are being asked to report teachers whose politics are contrary to those of the new president. Now, where have I heard that one before...... Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Spain? Try modern Germany... |
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