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Post by Adam in Stroud on Nov 24, 2022 22:53:15 GMT
People need to wake up, a lot of the Pro-Brexit vote wasn't just an anti-EU it was an anti-Westminster vote. The fact that Brexit has been ballsed up, re-enforces the feeling that the EU and Westminster are the same, a load of power, money hungry people who ignore ordinary folk. Brexit was an anti-establishment vote. Failure of Brexit, hardships of Brexit are going to be blamed on EU and Westminster by many; as Westminster is seen as, they don't care about whats best for real people, and never will. Outcome, people stopping voting, people feeling more alienated, society splintering more into the in crowd and the rest. Another referendum, on rejoining the EU might pass but only because a high percentage now perceive voting as pointless as Westminster will Westminster no matter what, just like Brussels.
Liberal Democrats and Labour are only up in the polls due to Tory ineptness, it is not an endorsement of them, their policies or the EU.
Yes, certainly. Therein lies the problem - the absolute essence of Brexit as a practical policy is repatriation of powers from Brussels to Westminster. At which point anyone wanting to kick Westminster ought to have said "Doh!" Your last point is also correct (normal for most governments in trouble of course) but Brexit is an example of it. The views of 18-24 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 and are at the sharp end of the economic issues also needs to be considered and I don't think are on your radar much.
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YouGov
Nov 24, 2022 23:05:42 GMT
Post by matureleft on Nov 24, 2022 23:05:42 GMT
People need to wake up, a lot of the Pro-Brexit vote wasn't just an anti-EU it was an anti-Westminster vote. The fact that Brexit has been ballsed up, re-enforces the feeling that the EU and Westminster are the same, a load of power, money hungry people who ignore ordinary folk. Brexit was an anti-establishment vote. Failure of Brexit, hardships of Brexit are going to be blamed on EU and Westminster by many; as Westminster is seen as, they don't care about whats best for real people, and never will. Outcome, people stopping voting, people feeling more alienated, society splintering more into the in crowd and the rest. Another referendum, on rejoining the EU might pass but only because a high percentage now perceive voting as pointless as Westminster will Westminster no matter what, just like Brussels.
Liberal Democrats and Labour are only up in the polls due to Tory ineptness, it is not an endorsement of them, their policies or the EU.
I’d largely agree. That’s why there needs to a serious attempt to make it work. We’ve got the crazy position that the people who fought for this form of Brexit had painfully little idea of how to use it at the time, and still seem most interested in re-fighting past battles. It’s now a practical task where problems need to be addressed and opportunities pursued.
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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YouGov
Nov 25, 2022 4:10:55 GMT
Post by maxque on Nov 25, 2022 4:10:55 GMT
Which block did you have in mind? The USA and Canada. Won't happen as the British public have been brainwashed about chlorinated chicken and the NHS. There is no USA/Canada block and USA keeps making it harder for Canadian people and goods to enter USA.
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YouGov
Nov 25, 2022 7:34:55 GMT
Post by Benevolent Dictator / Tsar on Nov 25, 2022 7:34:55 GMT
People need to wake up, a lot of the Pro-Brexit vote wasn't just an anti-EU it was an anti-Westminster vote. The fact that Brexit has been ballsed up, re-enforces the feeling that the EU and Westminster are the same, a load of power, money hungry people who ignore ordinary folk. Brexit was an anti-establishment vote. Failure of Brexit, hardships of Brexit are going to be blamed on EU and Westminster by many; as Westminster is seen as, they don't care about whats best for real people, and never will. Outcome, people stopping voting, people feeling more alienated, society splintering more into the in crowd and the rest. Another referendum, on rejoining the EU might pass but only because a high percentage now perceive voting as pointless as Westminster will Westminster no matter what, just like Brussels.
Liberal Democrats and Labour are only up in the polls due to Tory ineptness, it is not an endorsement of them, their policies or the EU.
Yes, certainly. Therein lies the problem - the absolute essence of Brexit as a practical policy is repatriation of powers from Brussels to Westminster. At which point anyone wanting to kick Westminster ought to have said "Doh!" Your last point is also correct (normal for most governments in trouble of course) but Brexit is an example of it. The views of 18-24 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 and are at the sharp end of the economic issues also needs to be considered and I don't think are on your radar much. The views of minorities in politics are always ignored. 18-24 year olds are a tiny minority of voters, so their issues and views are therefore ignored as they are drowned out by the different louder views of others.
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bigfatron
Lib Dem
Posts: 1,759
Member is Online
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YouGov
Nov 25, 2022 7:51:58 GMT
Post by bigfatron on Nov 25, 2022 7:51:58 GMT
Yes, certainly. Therein lies the problem - the absolute essence of Brexit as a practical policy is repatriation of powers from Brussels to Westminster. At which point anyone wanting to kick Westminster ought to have said "Doh!" Your last point is also correct (normal for most governments in trouble of course) but Brexit is an example of it. The views of 18-24 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 and are at the sharp end of the economic issues also needs to be considered and I don't think are on your radar much. The views of minorities in politics are always ignored. 18-24 year olds are a tiny minority of voters, so their issues and views are therefore ignored as they are drowned out by the different louder views of others. Hmmm - without wanting to prolong the Brexit debate, but the views of those few people who really cared about Brexit prior to 2014 were given amplification and came to dominate national debate; likewise on immigration and - dare I say it - transgender and certain other woke and anti-woke issues. It seems to me the views of minorities are ignored unless you have a major media outlet keen to push those views for their own purposes (Mail, Express, Telegraph or Guardian typically). At which point minority views can be a tool to guide the national agenda, and not usually in a good way...
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YouGov
Nov 25, 2022 8:02:56 GMT
Post by Benevolent Dictator / Tsar on Nov 25, 2022 8:02:56 GMT
The views of minorities in politics are always ignored. 18-24 year olds are a tiny minority of voters, so their issues and views are therefore ignored as they are drowned out by the different louder views of others. Hmmm - without wanting to prolong the Brexit debate, but the views of those few people who really cared about Brexit prior to 2014 were given amplification and came to dominate national debate; likewise on immigration and - dare I say it - transgender and certain other woke and anti-woke issues. It seems to me the views of minorities are ignored unless you have a major media outlet keen to push those views for their own purposes (Mail, Express, Telegraph or Guardian typically). At which point minority views can be a tool to guide the national agenda, and not usually in a good way... Media dripping in views over 30 years helped with Brexit that is true, as it fed the anti-establishment narrative. Twitter etc are amplifiers of views, making a minority view bigger than it really is. Twitter etc are now part of the establishment, views on there are not those of the majority, they are just another impediment between real views and politicians. The only way to get people's views is to talk to them in person.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 37,227
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 30, 2022 13:40:43 GMT
Think this lot had a poll out yesterday.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 30, 2022 13:51:48 GMT
Think this lot had a poll out yesterday. This?
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YouGov
Nov 30, 2022 23:29:33 GMT
Post by casualobserver on Nov 30, 2022 23:29:33 GMT
That, plus all the stories (which turned out to be untrue) like having to have straight bananas or whatnot. The straight bananas story was, it's true, misleading, but I'm not so sure that the whatnots were false.
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Post by woollyliberal on Dec 1, 2022 9:33:20 GMT
The straight bananas story was, it's true, misleading Misleading? It was an outright lie in the style of Boris Johnson. He was a journalist at the time and well known for being lazy. He enjoyed flamboyant writing but was loathed to do any "work" like research or investigation. So he just made stuff up. It's well known that as a motoring journalist, he had cars delivered for him to review. They'd be collected later with zero miles driven. Yet he'd write enthusiastically about the handling or the sound. Pure fabrication. The same was true when he was sacked for making up quotes of people. It takes work to find out what they said. Making things up is quick and easy. This brings us to the banana lie. The EU unifies rules. It takes the original laws of each of the member states and tries to make a common standard. The aim is to make a product that complies with the law in one country to also comply everywhere else. An example was electricity, my industry. I spent part of my student placement testing all their products to see if they complied with the new EU rule. All but one did, and they tweaked that to work. In the UK, we have 240V mains +/- 10%. So products must fully work from 218 to 264V. Elsewhere they had 220V +/= 10% i.e. 200V - 242V. Some things made in the EU wouldn't work properly in the UK and vice versa. The EU solution? Make the nominal voltage 230V +/- 15%. That way, every electrical device sold would work in any country. The consumer would never know. Back to bananas. You'll notice that in the UK, fruit and veg sold in supermarkets are sold as Class I. That is they are perfect in shape without deformations. Class II have slight irregularities and everything else is made into soup or animal feed. I'm old enough to remember "that's life" on TV. They would regularly show off amusingly shaped carrots. UK law banned them for sale in the shops. The EU wanted to make a common rule for all EU countries that matched the UK's (and no doubt other countries' standards). Boris in his usual truth ignoring fashion wrote a piece waxing lyrical about how the EU are banning bendy bananas and would make us all eat straight bananas. A lie? I suspect he did it partly for mischief and partly because he didn't want to do the work of researching a proper story. Why spend a day at work when you can jot it out in half an hour and get paid the same. The Daily Mail picked up on the story and told it to their readers as fact. Mail Believers took it as absolute truth and 30 years on there are still some who believe it. And people like casualobserver who pass it off as merely 'misleading'. It was an outright fabrication. A knowing untruth. A lie. Boris is well known for it.
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Post by london(ex)tory on Dec 1, 2022 10:21:01 GMT
Highest for Reform ever with a long-established pollster!
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Post by batman on Dec 1, 2022 10:31:13 GMT
as if the Tories didn't have enough headaches already
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YouGov
Dec 1, 2022 10:32:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by jollyroger93 on Dec 1, 2022 10:32:36 GMT
Polls are wild atm they are all over the place.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 37,227
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YouGov
Dec 1, 2022 11:50:53 GMT
Post by The Bishop on Dec 1, 2022 11:50:53 GMT
Well this one suggests obvious outlier with that Reform figure, nice though it may be to think the Tories are back in the low 20s again.
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 6,942
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Post by jamie on Dec 1, 2022 11:55:26 GMT
Just as PeoplePolling and Osmosis row back from a couple of record high Reform polls, YouGov finds them once again surging. Either some very odd outliers or a very odd trend.
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carlton43
Non-Aligned
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 1, 2022 12:04:34 GMT
Just as PeoplePolling and Osmosis row back from a couple of record high Reform polls, YouGov finds them once again surging. Either some very odd outliers or a very odd trend. Surely it is just a mirror of what we see in these columns amongst those on the right? Rapid and considerable mood changes and quite large churn in voting intention. The polls are usually pretty useless and at present they are out of date before being published and hardly meaningful anyway.
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polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,192
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Post by polupolu on Dec 1, 2022 13:26:11 GMT
The straight bananas story was, it's true, misleading Misleading? It was an outright lie in the style of Boris Johnson. He was a journalist at the time and well known for being lazy. He enjoyed flamboyant writing but was loathed to do any "work" like research or investigation. So he just made stuff up. It's well known that as a motoring journalist, he had cars delivered for him to review. They'd be collected later with zero miles driven. Yet he'd write enthusiastically about the handling or the sound. Pure fabrication. The same was true when he was sacked for making up quotes of people. It takes work to find out what they said. Making things up is quick and easy. This brings us to the banana lie. The EU unifies rules. It takes the original laws of each of the member states and tries to make a common standard. The aim is to make a product that complies with the law in one country to also comply everywhere else. An example was electricity, my industry. I spent part of my student placement testing all their products to see if they complied with the new EU rule. All but one did, and they tweaked that to work. In the UK, we have 240V mains +/- 10%. So products must fully work from 218 to 264V. Elsewhere they had 220V +/= 10% i.e. 200V - 242V. Some things made in the EU wouldn't work properly in the UK and vice versa. The EU solution? Make the nominal voltage 230V +/- 15%. That way, every electrical device sold would work in any country. The consumer would never know. Back to bananas. You'll notice that in the UK, fruit and veg sold in supermarkets are sold as Class I. That is they are perfect in shape without deformations. Class II have slight irregularities and everything else is made into soup or animal feed. I'm old enough to remember "that's life" on TV. They would regularly show off amusingly shaped carrots. UK law banned them for sale in the shops. The EU wanted to make a common rule for all EU countries that matched the UK's (and no doubt other countries' standards). Boris in his usual truth ignoring fashion wrote a piece waxing lyrical about how the EU are banning bendy bananas and would make us all eat straight bananas. A lie? I suspect he did it partly for mischief and partly because he didn't want to do the work of researching a proper story. Why spend a day at work when you can jot it out in half an hour and get paid the same. The Daily Mail picked up on the story and told it to their readers as fact. Mail Believers took it as absolute truth and 30 years on there are still some who believe it. And people like casualobserver who pass it off as merely 'misleading'. It was an outright fabrication. A knowing untruth. A lie. Boris is well known for it. There was also the "Italian condom" story ("load of bullshit" according to Willy Hélin, the official who Mr Johnson misquoted).
And the story that the commission HQ would be "blown up by the end of 1991. Sappers will lay explosive charges at key points” story. "Complete Bollocks" according to Geoff Meade of the Press Association (and blowing up a building that contained asbestos would have been dumb). The HQ is still there I understand.
And the story that one of the people working for Delors lived in a castle (weird given Johnson had actually been invited to the house).
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Essentially, what was being done in Brussels at the time he was there was boring technical work on single market; but Johnson was under pressure to send in interesting stories that could go on the front page of the Telegraph.
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Post by Benevolent Dictator / Tsar on Dec 1, 2022 16:18:56 GMT
Misleading? It was an outright lie in the style of Boris Johnson. He was a journalist at the time and well known for being lazy. He enjoyed flamboyant writing but was loathed to do any "work" like research or investigation. So he just made stuff up. It's well known that as a motoring journalist, he had cars delivered for him to review. They'd be collected later with zero miles driven. Yet he'd write enthusiastically about the handling or the sound. Pure fabrication. The same was true when he was sacked for making up quotes of people. It takes work to find out what they said. Making things up is quick and easy. This brings us to the banana lie. The EU unifies rules. It takes the original laws of each of the member states and tries to make a common standard. The aim is to make a product that complies with the law in one country to also comply everywhere else. An example was electricity, my industry. I spent part of my student placement testing all their products to see if they complied with the new EU rule. All but one did, and they tweaked that to work. In the UK, we have 240V mains +/- 10%. So products must fully work from 218 to 264V. Elsewhere they had 220V +/= 10% i.e. 200V - 242V. Some things made in the EU wouldn't work properly in the UK and vice versa. The EU solution? Make the nominal voltage 230V +/- 15%. That way, every electrical device sold would work in any country. The consumer would never know. Back to bananas. You'll notice that in the UK, fruit and veg sold in supermarkets are sold as Class I. That is they are perfect in shape without deformations. Class II have slight irregularities and everything else is made into soup or animal feed. I'm old enough to remember "that's life" on TV. They would regularly show off amusingly shaped carrots. UK law banned them for sale in the shops. The EU wanted to make a common rule for all EU countries that matched the UK's (and no doubt other countries' standards). Boris in his usual truth ignoring fashion wrote a piece waxing lyrical about how the EU are banning bendy bananas and would make us all eat straight bananas. A lie? I suspect he did it partly for mischief and partly because he didn't want to do the work of researching a proper story. Why spend a day at work when you can jot it out in half an hour and get paid the same. The Daily Mail picked up on the story and told it to their readers as fact. Mail Believers took it as absolute truth and 30 years on there are still some who believe it. And people like casualobserver who pass it off as merely 'misleading'. It was an outright fabrication. A knowing untruth. A lie. Boris is well known for it. There was also the "Italian condom" story ("load of bullshit" according to Willy Hélin, the official who Mr Johnson misquoted).
And the story that the commission HQ would be "blown up by the end of 1991. Sappers will lay explosive charges at key points” story. "Complete Bollocks" according to Geoff Meade of the Press Association (and blowing up a building that contained asbestos would have been dumb). The HQ is still there I understand.
And the story that one of the people working for Delors lived in a castle (weird given Johnson had actually been invited to the house).
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Essentially, what was being done in Brussels at the time he was there was boring technical work on single market; but Johnson was under pressure to send in interesting stories that could go on the front page of the Telegraph.
Interesting you still remember them all, I don't.
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polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,192
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YouGov
Dec 1, 2022 19:07:54 GMT
Post by polupolu on Dec 1, 2022 19:07:54 GMT
There was also the "Italian condom" story ("load of bullshit" according to Willy Hélin, the official who Mr Johnson misquoted).
And the story that the commission HQ would be "blown up by the end of 1991. Sappers will lay explosive charges at key points” story. "Complete Bollocks" according to Geoff Meade of the Press Association (and blowing up a building that contained asbestos would have been dumb). The HQ is still there I understand.
And the story that one of the people working for Delors lived in a castle (weird given Johnson had actually been invited to the house).
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Essentially, what was being done in Brussels at the time he was there was boring technical work on single market; but Johnson was under pressure to send in interesting stories that could go on the front page of the Telegraph.
Interesting you still remember them all, I don't.
Sadly, half-remembered useless trivia sticks in my head. My mother-in-law reads the Telegraph (for their crossword) so I get to know what they write. Mr Johnson's articles are easy enough to look up if you half-remember them.
Another thing that sticks, irritatingly, in the mind was Allister (sic) Heath when he was writing in City A.M. (I understand he now heads up the Sunday Telegraph). As far as I can tell he is economically illiterate, notwithstanding having been to the LSE and having done a MPhil in Oxford.
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Post by batman on Dec 1, 2022 20:48:35 GMT
Polls are wild atm they are all over the place. not that wild. They vary a bit, but they all without exception show a large Labour Party lead. It ranges, in the last week, between 15% & 25%. The difference has quite often been greater than that in the last couple of years. Kantar almost always show Labour doing worse than all other pollsters, and they only poll very sporadically; if you exclude their poll, which was a few days ago, the range is between 18 & 25%, not all that wild really.
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