J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,479
|
Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 28, 2022 8:22:53 GMT
That's remarkably precise.
|
|
|
Post by matureleft on Oct 28, 2022 8:35:12 GMT
That's remarkably precise. The poll itself demonstrates what a poor job the government has done making what it can of the spaces Brexit offers. The truth is Brexit enthusiasts in politics had only the vaguest idea of what to do should they succeed, and they've spent very little time on that since the referendum. Far too much effort spent on persisting with tiresome disputes with the EU for the benefit of Mail and Express readers. Cummings has produced some ideas, but he's been "distracted" to an extent. I strongly hope we'll see more from the pragmatists - "I wouldn't have started from here" types. They'll have less of the baggage that seems to encumber the true believers.
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Oct 28, 2022 8:38:58 GMT
That's remarkably precise. The poll itself demonstrates what a poor job the government has done making what it can of the spaces Brexit offers. The truth is Brexit enthusiasts in politics had only the vaguest idea of what to do should they succeed, and they've spent very little time on that since the referendum. Far too much effort spent on persisting with tiresome disputes with the EU for the benefit of Mail and Express readers. Cummings has produced some ideas, but he's been "distracted" to an extent. I strongly hope we'll see more from the pragmatists - "I wouldn't have started from here" types. They'll have less of the baggage that seems to encumber the true believers. It was always obvious that some sort of arrangement was required but the position of both those who wanted to overturn the referendum and those who liked the idea of leaving but hadn't a clue how it would work didn't help.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,391
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Oct 28, 2022 9:22:58 GMT
And if you go back, Tories were in power for 13 years (1951-1964) and its often forgotten Labour were *in government* for over a decade before then.Might be stretching the point Well in a way perhaps, but the fact remains that by 1951 several leading members of the Attlee government had been ministers for over a decade (and of course it was hardly an uneventful time, either) They were totally exhausted, often in the most literal sense - quite a few died not long after leaving office.
|
|
nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,373
|
YouGov
Oct 28, 2022 9:28:10 GMT
Post by nodealbrexiteer on Oct 28, 2022 9:28:10 GMT
Might be stretching the point Well in a way perhaps, but the fact remains that by 1951 several leading members of the Attlee government had been ministers for over a decade (and of course it was hardly an uneventful time, either) They were totally exhausted, often in the most literal sense - quite a few died not long after leaving office. Yes sadly they did. I suppose 1945-1951 felt like the first 'real' Labour government in some way being the first to have a majority and last over 2.5 years! The 1997-2010 Lab govt sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of it's length compared to previous ones
|
|
timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
|
Post by timmullen1 on Nov 16, 2022 16:56:07 GMT
|
|
timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
|
Post by timmullen1 on Nov 23, 2022 13:45:59 GMT
|
|
|
Post by michaelarden on Nov 23, 2022 19:35:18 GMT
Are Reform being prompted - I can see no reason why they should be anything much above an asterisk - or is GB News having more of an effect them we think?
|
|
|
Post by aargauer on Nov 23, 2022 20:17:25 GMT
Are Reform being prompted - I can see no reason why they should be anything much above an asterisk - or is GB News having more of an effect them we think? Well given this Conservative government is behaving like a left of centre one i can very much see why they should be well above an asterisk. Although unlike Forfarshire Conservative I personally will not be wearing light blue.
|
|
|
YouGov
Nov 23, 2022 21:44:45 GMT
Post by woollyliberal on Nov 23, 2022 21:44:45 GMT
Are Reform being prompted - I can see no reason why they should be anything much above an asterisk - or is GB News having more of an effect them we think? The more Brexit is shown to be a failure, the more people there will be saying "this is not a proper Brexit". Some of those will gravitate towards Whatever continuity UKIP-like party is most popular.
|
|
jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,026
|
YouGov
Nov 23, 2022 21:59:37 GMT
Post by jamie on Nov 23, 2022 21:59:37 GMT
The more Brexit is shown to be a failure, the more people there will be saying "this is not a proper Brexit". Some of those will gravitate towards Whatever continuity UKIP-like party is most popular. But for ordinary people what is a ‘proper Brexit’? We’ve left the EU, gotten rid of freedom of movement, left the Customs Union etc. For all parts of the Brexit elite may want to go much further and do things like scrapping the Withdrawal Agreement, among ordinary people there is little support for doing things like this. Public opinion is a mixture of ‘we’ve left, great’, ‘we’ve left, let’s move on’, ‘we’ve left, but let’s get a bit closer’, and ‘we’ve left, but we should rejoin’. Boris made sure it looked like we properly left the EU and the big ticket items that caused people to vote leave have been delivered on. Consequently, the public have largely moved on and care about other issues like the cost of living crisis, so I just can’t see ‘not proper Brexit’ becoming a salient issue among the public.
|
|
timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
|
Post by timmullen1 on Nov 23, 2022 22:40:02 GMT
The more Brexit is shown to be a failure, the more people there will be saying "this is not a proper Brexit". Some of those will gravitate towards Whatever continuity UKIP-like party is most popular. But for ordinary people what is a ‘proper Brexit’? We’ve left the EU, gotten rid of freedom of movement, left the Customs Union etc. For all parts of the Brexit elite may want to go much further and do things like scrapping the Withdrawal Agreement, among ordinary people there is little support for doing things like this. Public opinion is a mixture of ‘we’ve left, great’, ‘we’ve left, let’s move on’, ‘we’ve left, but let’s get a bit closer’, and ‘we’ve left, but we should rejoin’. Boris made sure it looked like we properly left the EU and the big ticket items that caused people to vote leave have been delivered on. Consequently, the public have largely moved on and care about other issues like the cost of living crisis, so I just can’t see ‘not proper Brexit’ becoming a salient issue among the public. Loathe as I am to say it, immigration. People in areas like mine didn’t vote Leave because of Customs Union or trade, they voted because they believe(d) their kids can’t get a house, their grandkids can’t get into their first choice school, they’re having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get a hip replacement because all these “bloody foreigners” get free houses, and free cars, and free healthcare etc, etc. And that, in their minds didn’t just apply to EU immigration, of which there was relatively little, but South Asian immigration - my now retired GP, originally from Goa, was told on three occasions the Friday after the vote that he’d be going “home” soon. I fear with the talk of the CBI and others calling for more economic migration, and a possible Swiss type relationship with the EU, that’s stirring those sentiments up again and whatever wagon Farage attaches himself to will benefit to a degree.
|
|
jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,026
|
Post by jamie on Nov 23, 2022 23:17:10 GMT
But for ordinary people what is a ‘proper Brexit’? We’ve left the EU, gotten rid of freedom of movement, left the Customs Union etc. For all parts of the Brexit elite may want to go much further and do things like scrapping the Withdrawal Agreement, among ordinary people there is little support for doing things like this. Public opinion is a mixture of ‘we’ve left, great’, ‘we’ve left, let’s move on’, ‘we’ve left, but let’s get a bit closer’, and ‘we’ve left, but we should rejoin’. Boris made sure it looked like we properly left the EU and the big ticket items that caused people to vote leave have been delivered on. Consequently, the public have largely moved on and care about other issues like the cost of living crisis, so I just can’t see ‘not proper Brexit’ becoming a salient issue among the public. Loathe as I am to say it, immigration. People in areas like mine didn’t vote Leave because of Customs Union or trade, they voted because they believe(d) their kids can’t get a house, their grandkids can’t get into their first choice school, they’re having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get a hip replacement because all these “bloody foreigners” get free houses, and free cars, and free healthcare etc, etc. And that, in their minds didn’t just apply to EU immigration, of which there was relatively little, but South Asian immigration - my now retired GP, originally from Goa, was told on three occasions the Friday after the vote that he’d be going “home” soon. I fear with the talk of the CBI and others calling for more economic migration, and a possible Swiss type relationship with the EU, that’s stirring those sentiments up again and whatever wagon Farage attaches himself to will benefit to a degree. I agree and there’s still a lot of unhappiness about immigration for many people, but I wouldn’t really connect it to Brexit anymore. How much we limit EU migration is a consequence of Brexit but I’m not sure the exact level will be viewed as crucial in whether it is or is not ‘proper Brexit’, and given we’ve ended freedom of movement we’ve gotten rid of the most controversial parts anyways (the idea anybody can enter our country, get welfare, take in demand jobs etc). Much more important is illegal immigration (particularly the Channel crossings) as well as long-standing views of the sorts of immigrants we should be accepting. These issues can be a significant cleavage, but the immigration debate existed before we entered the EU and it’s going to keep existing to some degree afterwards. FWIW I think we mostly agree, i just wouldn’t associate immigration policy with Brexit anymore given we’ve left the EU and most of the immigration issues relate to non-EU migrants.
|
|
|
Post by woollyliberal on Nov 24, 2022 8:20:34 GMT
The more Brexit is shown to be a failure, the more people there will be saying "this is not a proper Brexit". Some of those will gravitate towards Whatever continuity UKIP-like party is most popular. But for ordinary people what is a ‘proper Brexit’? The disillusion is all the things that were promised but not delivered. We were promised to be better off. We were promised a better trade deal, we were promised less red tape. At some point everyone was told that which they wanted to hear. Instead, we're left poorer. The worse trade deal has driven prices up due to tarrifs. The increased red tape has left fresh food in shops with a shorter (remaining) shelf life. The xenophobes are left without massive reductions in "foreigners". The people who wanted more houses for their children have found that no more houses have magically been built. The list is as long as the fantasies that were promised. In short people have eaten their cake, looked down at their plate to find they no longer have it. They're disappointed because they were promised they would have.
|
|
|
Post by aargauer on Nov 24, 2022 9:13:04 GMT
Theres still a lot to be thankful for:
No CAP An Immigration system that is blind to origin No longer bring a shareholder in the insanity that is the ECB The chance to diverge on EU rules. The ability to join a non-declining block.
With vast self inflicted damages From the hysterical nonsense that was covid to the current tax and spend we aren't going to well, in or out. Developed EU countries underperform developed non-EU countries...
|
|
polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by polupolu on Nov 24, 2022 9:15:37 GMT
Theres still a lot to be thankful for: No CAP An Immigration system that is blind to origin No longer bring a shareholder in the ECB The chance to diverge on EU rules. The ability to join a non-declining block.Which block did you have in mind?
Agree about CAP (but the government has fluffed the mooted improvement). That was the one positive I wanted.
And, of course, the more we diverge from EU regulations, the more red tape there is in order to export to Europe (our regultations plus their regulations)
|
|
|
YouGov
Nov 24, 2022 9:17:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by aargauer on Nov 24, 2022 9:17:53 GMT
Theres still a lot to be thankful for: No CAP An Immigration system that is blind to origin No longer bring a shareholder in the ECB The chance to diverge on EU rules. The ability to join a non-declining block.Which block did you have in mind? The USA and Canada. Won't happen as the British public have been brainwashed about chlorinated chicken and the NHS.
|
|
polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by polupolu on Nov 24, 2022 9:21:11 GMT
Which block did you have in mind? The USA and Canada. Won't happen as the British public have been brainwashed about chlorinated chicken and the NHS. What makes you think the USA wants us in any block. They seem decidedly luke-warm on the concept. Also they have the muscle to demand anything we agree is on their terms (see the recent renegotiation they did with Canada and Mexico).
|
|
|
YouGov
Nov 24, 2022 9:26:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by aargauer on Nov 24, 2022 9:26:05 GMT
The USA and Canada. Won't happen as the British public have been brainwashed about chlorinated chicken and the NHS. What makes you think the USA wants us in any block. They seem decidedly luke-warm on the concept. Also they have the muscle to demand anything we agree is on their terms (see the recent renegotiation they did with Canada and Mexico). It would clearly involve essentially accepting their terms. I don't see why it is not in their interest to have an increasingly close tight arrangement with anglophone countries on their terms. Generally I prefer their way of doing things anyway. It's admittedly pie in the sky at present, but freedom of movement to the US/Canada for workers would be of far, far more value to British people than it would be to the EU. For retirement there's numerous golden visa options in Europe anyway.
|
|
|
Post by matureleft on Nov 24, 2022 10:08:39 GMT
But for ordinary people what is a ‘proper Brexit’? The disillusion is all the things that were promised but not delivered. We were promised to be better off. We were promised a better trade deal, we were promised less red tape. At some point everyone was told that which they wanted to hear. Instead, we're left poorer. The worse trade deal has driven prices up due to tarrifs. The increased red tape has left fresh food in shops with a shorter (remaining) shelf life. The xenophobes are left without massive reductions in "foreigners". The people who wanted more houses for their children have found that no more houses have magically been built. The list is as long as the fantasies that were promised. In short people have eaten their cake, looked down at their plate to find they no longer have it. They're disappointed because they were promised they would have. A bit premature, but broadly that's what I think will happen. The Brexit campaign mobilised a fair number of people pretty heavily disengaged from politics. They will become more disillusioned as Brexit fails to deliver what they imagined it might. I recall talking separately to two people doing some work on my home when I lived in Derbyshire. It was startling to hear what they expected to happen. I suppose it shouldn't have surprised me bearing in mind the pretty relentless and indiscriminate blaming of the EU by both politicians and the media. It was a really convenient excuse for poor performance (and it's retained some of that purpose - the "bullied Brits" narrative post Brexit seems to have dulled slightly). Quite who this kind of supporter blames, and what they do is open. I'd rather suspect, sadly, that they'll return to non-voting.
|
|