Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 14:56:16 GMT
Napier, of course, did not send a dispatch saying 'peccavi': it was a joke sent into Punch, who printed it as if it were true. What a shame. |
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 26, 2018 15:42:10 GMT
Havelock and Napier are warnings of the risk in putting up statues that contemporaries "identify with". Popular military heroes at the date of erection, within 50 years they were largely forgotten figures even within their own field. Even amongst the very narrow category of "Great Victorian Generals" Garnett Wolsey, Roberts, and Kitchener (off top of my head) would be better candidates - but Havelock and Napier were household names at the time. Funnily enough the statue of Edward Jenner, a genuinely titanic figure in his field, was removed. Indeed that's a good point, there is statue of a previous Duke of Cambridge in his role as C-in-C of the British Army in Whitehall opposite Horseguards. Cambridge held the post for many years and even at the time was a particularly ineffective administrator. There were grumbles about putting his statue up but Queen Victoria would not have been amused if it hadn't. Time to take it down. Colonel-in-Chief of the Middlesex Regiment (Duke of Cambridge's Own). "Ineffective administrator" is polite, he was a blocker of reforms and general nuisance, but he was also C-in-C for a long time and therefore albeit negatively an important figure in British institutional military history - on that particular site his statue is appropriate and if it makes people think "who the hell?" look him up and learn some history it does its job. (Ditto the statue of the Duke of York at the head of the Mall, a very fine administrator now just as forgotten as the D of C.) Similarly Trafalgar Square is a mid-Victorian creation and I think it right to preserve it in all its curiosity rather than imposing our own ideas which will look equally curious in future but lack the aesthetic coherence. A decent information board with a warts and all account of each general (and why our ancestors were so smitten with them) would be much better than excising them. |
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 26, 2018 15:48:25 GMT
This puts me in mind of the subject of writers and their popularity. Not a shock where I'm going here given my love of Saki. (snip) And then there are some who I bet not many people younger than me remember. My dad used to hand me books by the likes of Anthony Hope and Raphael Sabatini (I can already sense carlton43 nodding in approval), who were still widely read into the Seventies. It's a great advantage to have access to a parental or grand-parental library when a child, I have a love for popular writers from the 20s to 50s (and others such as Hope whose popularity survived into that era) as a result - I doubt I'd have picked up Saki if I hadn't read, say, Conan Doyle earlier. The two Ruritanian stories are still good comfort reading for me, and short enough that I can read them as a pick-me-up without losing much time. |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 26, 2018 15:51:09 GMT
Maj Gen Sir Henry Havelock is on the S E plinth - we walked past him yesterday on our way to the NPG. Ken Livingstone suggested in 2000 that they both be removed. Ken was right we need statues people can identify with. I fear statues of Cheryl Cole, David Beckham, Simon Cowell ... |
|
|
|
Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jul 26, 2018 16:28:41 GMT
Similarly, a look at a list of Nobel Prize laureates for literature turns up a variety of people who were staggeringly popular and famous in their day, but are mainly forgotten by the wider public. Mistral, Hauptmann, Maeterlinck, Spitteler, Galsworthy (arguably), Mauriac (certainly outside France), for example. The various Soviet writers enforced by the state, all manner of Italian writers in the early twentieth century, there are loads more. We've been weeding the library recently. We've got the complete works of most of those authors and in several cases not a single one of their books has been borrowed in the past decade. |
|
Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,824 
|
Post by Georg Ebner on Jul 26, 2018 16:42:53 GMT
But I was reading an article about Gerhart Hauptmann the other day. Once one of the most popular, famous playwrights not just in Germany but on earth. He was famous enough to be asked to run for president of Germany, and even once was asked to be Chancellor. Now he is mostly forgotten outside academic circles HAUPTMANN saved from falling into total oblivion, that He wrote one famous play ("The Weavers"), which is still quite well-known - i had to read it at school. |
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,029
|
Post by Sibboleth on Jul 26, 2018 16:44:13 GMT
We're finally getting some actual declarations, can you believe it? Official numbers thusfar: PTI 77, PML-N 42, PPP 16, Ind 7, MMA 4, PML-Q 2, MQM-P 1, ANP 1, BNP 1, GDA 1.
Note that Sindh is disproportionately represented in terms of constituencies not yet declared.
|
|
|
|
Post by finsobruce on Jul 26, 2018 16:50:32 GMT
Ken was right we need statues people can identify with. I fear statues of Cheryl Cole, David Beckham, Simon Cowell ... Don't worry - they can't hurt you. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 26, 2018 16:53:30 GMT
But I was reading an article about Gerhart Hauptmann the other day. Once one of the most popular, famous playwrights not just in Germany but on earth. He was famous enough to be asked to run for president of Germany, and even once was asked to be Chancellor. Now he is mostly forgotten outside academic circles HAUPTMANN saved from falling into total oblivion, that He wrote one famous play ("The Weavers"), which is still quite well-known - i had to read it at school. I had to do "Vor Sonnenaufgang" at university. That Silesian German is very difficult. But his demise is quite something given his long, extended period of fame. Did you know that he wrote the opening act for the opening of the Breslau/Wroclaw Centennial Hall (a stunning building) but the performance was barred by the Kaiser himself? |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 26, 2018 16:54:31 GMT
We're finally getting some actual declarations, can you believe it? Official numbers thusfar: PTI 77, PML-N 42, PPP 16, Ind 7, MMA 4, PML-Q 2, MQM-P 1, ANP 1, BNP 1, GDA 1. Note that Sindh is disproportionately represented in terms of constituencies not yet declared. Perhaps they've been voting the wrong way ... |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 26, 2018 16:55:08 GMT
Similarly, a look at a list of Nobel Prize laureates for literature turns up a variety of people who were staggeringly popular and famous in their day, but are mainly forgotten by the wider public. Mistral, Hauptmann, Maeterlinck, Spitteler, Galsworthy (arguably), Mauriac (certainly outside France), for example. The various Soviet writers enforced by the state, all manner of Italian writers in the early twentieth century, there are loads more. We've been weeding the library recently. We've got the complete works of most of those authors and in several cases not a single one of their books has been borrowed in the past decade. It's interesting to see that your concrete experience matches my theory. Of all of those, I'd say Mauriac and Hauptmann are losses. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 26, 2018 17:04:06 GMT
Similarly, a look at a list of Nobel Prize laureates for literature turns up a variety of people who were staggeringly popular and famous in their day, but are mainly forgotten by the wider public. Mistral, Hauptmann, Maeterlinck, Spitteler, Galsworthy (arguably), Mauriac (certainly outside France), for example. The various Soviet writers enforced by the state, all manner of Italian writers in the early twentieth century, there are loads more. We've been weeding the library recently. We've got the complete works of most of those authors and in several cases not a single one of their books has been borrowed in the past decade. |
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,029
|
Post by Sibboleth on Jul 26, 2018 17:14:56 GMT
Crossman referenced Bennett at times in his diaries (often as a shorthand way of describing a certain sort of insular Midlands town rather than just the Potteries - Dudley in one instance), clearly assuming that the sort of person who read his diaries would be familiar with Bennett.
|
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,029
|
Post by Sibboleth on Jul 26, 2018 17:20:34 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jul 26, 2018 18:25:08 GMT
As a cricket fan of a certain age it is hard not to feel a residual affection for Imran Khan.
A few years' back I was quite impressed with an interview he gave identifying corruption as the major problem holding Pakistan back and in other circumstances some of his more dubious views might not bother me too much - it is no good pretending that there isn't a strong body of opinion in Pakistan that is traditionalist Islamic and they have as much right to democratic representation as anyone else in their own country.
But it's very hard to square that anti-corruption campaigner with the circumstances of this election. If he can't deliver on that then what's the point of him?
|
|
Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,824
|
Post by Georg Ebner on Jul 26, 2018 18:27:04 GMT
HAUPTMANN saved from falling into total oblivion, that He wrote one famous play ("The Weavers"), which is still quite well-known - i had to read it at school. I had to do "Vor Sonnenaufgang" at university. That Silesian German is very difficult. But his demise is quite something given his long, extended period of fame. Did you know that he wrote the opening act for the opening of the Breslau/Wroclaw Centennial Hall (a stunning building) but the performance was barred by the Kaiser himself? Yes, probably because of HAUPTMANN only CrownPrince William was present in the city at all and he or his father (or others?) stopped the performance. |
|
Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,824
|
Post by Georg Ebner on Jul 26, 2018 18:36:41 GMT
As a cricket fan of a certain age it is hard not to feel a residual affection for Imran Khan. A few years' back I was quite impressed with an interview he gave identifying corruption as the major problem holding Pakistan back and in other circumstances some of his more dubious views might not bother me too much - it is no good pretending that there isn't a strong body of opinion in Pakistan that is traditionalist Islamic and they have as much right to democratic representation as anyone else in their own country. But it's very hard to square that anti-corruption campaigner with the circumstances of this election. If he can't deliver on that then what's the point of him? Deriving from (very) correct CivilServants i insist, that corruption is finally, what rescues us from "the grey beast"... |
|
|
|
Post by finsobruce on Jul 26, 2018 19:52:09 GMT
Havelock and Napier are warnings of the risk in putting up statues that contemporaries "identify with". Popular military heroes at the date of erection, within 50 years they were largely forgotten figures even within their own field. Even amongst the very narrow category of "Great Victorian Generals" Garnett Wolsey, Roberts, and Kitchener (off top of my head) would be better candidates - but Havelock and Napier were household names at the time. Funnily enough the statue of Edward Jenner, a genuinely titanic figure in his field, was removed. This puts me in mind of the subject of writers and their popularity. Not a shock where I'm going here given my love of Saki. But I was reading an article about Gerhart Hauptmann the other day. Once one of the most popular, famous playwrights not just in Germany but on earth. He was famous enough to be asked to run for president of Germany, and even once was asked to be Chancellor. Now he is mostly forgotten outside academic circles (although I'm sure finsobruce might have encountered revivals). The most recent revival of Hauptmann's "The Weavers" that I can find was in Dundee/Glasgow in 1997, having been stage at the Gate in Notting Hill the previous year. The Roundhouse saw a production in 1980 claiming to be the British premiere, which wasn't even close to being true. The company I'm a member of put it on in 1960 (with the action re-located to West Yorkshire!), but the very first staging I can find was at the theatre of the Crystal Palace on May 1st 1901 "as part of the labour festival". He is described as a socialist writer. There were several other post war revivals in various places. In 1933 the critic H M Walbrook wrote an article on the history of Hauptmann's plays in England, singling out "The Sunken Bell" for particular praise. |
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2018 20:26:27 GMT
Napier is an interesting guy- he is best known now in terms of his India career but he was also very prominent in radical political circles in Bath in the 1840s and was used to put down the Chartists but was far more sympathetic to their cause than he was to his political masters who employed him for the task.Now occupies the SW plinth in Trafalgar Square of course.A combination of a very professional - and ruthless- soldier and a radical liberal politician is rather unusual. Maj Gen Sir Henry Havelock is on the S E plinth - we walked past him yesterday on our way to the NPG. Ken Livingstone suggested in 2000 that they both be removed. Love the NPG and always visit if in London. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 26, 2018 20:46:03 GMT
This puts me in mind of the subject of writers and their popularity. Not a shock where I'm going here given my love of Saki. But I was reading an article about Gerhart Hauptmann the other day. Once one of the most popular, famous playwrights not just in Germany but on earth. He was famous enough to be asked to run for president of Germany, and even once was asked to be Chancellor. Now he is mostly forgotten outside academic circles (although I'm sure finsobruce might have encountered revivals). He is described as a socialist writer. He was, to a great degree. His reputation suffered from his failure to distance himself from the Nazis, but even then, the Soviets pressured the Poles to leave him alone because he was ultimately regarded as a man keen on the concerns of socialists. And he was associated with some of the wacky stuff that lefty intellectuals of the day enjoyed, such as eugenics and obsessing about whether alcoholism was inherited. Thank you for the other details about the history of its production, very interesting. I'm doing a masters next year part-time and I'm considering doing a piece on Hauptmann and another much-forgotten man of a not dissimilar vintage, Fontane. |
|
