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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jun 14, 2024 19:54:00 GMT
I don't know why Ireland don't use electronic counting like Scottish local elections – would reduce the week-long marathon to a day or two at most. This would also let them use the fairer Gregory counting method instead of the random sampling method (which while probably fine for the Euro elections given the large sample sizes, could probably affect a handful of local results even if papers are mixed thoroughly). Wait, please no, are you telling me they reallocate transfers not by counting the votes but by taking a random sample of a few ballots and aggregating Not quite. I believe they follow a procedure based on the original British rules for STV elections which were intended to be introduced in 1918. See "Copy of draft rules prescribing the method of voting and transferring and counting votes at any election according to the principle of ... the single transferable vote" Cd 8768. When there's a surplus to transfer, the first votes to look at are those most recently transferred to that candidate, then the next most recently transferred etc, until the number of transferrable ballots exceeds the surplus. Once this happens, the appropriate proportion of whole ballot papers are formally transferred (ie at a value of 1). |
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Post by observer on Jun 14, 2024 20:02:15 GMT
Did you say that when PR was imposed on the UK for European elections? It wasn't imposed. Are you sure about that? |
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Post by johnloony on Jun 14, 2024 20:04:49 GMT
Wait, please no, are you telling me they reallocate transfers not by counting the votes but by taking a random sample of a few ballots and aggregating Not quite. I believe they follow a procedure based on the original British rules for STV elections which were intended to be introduced in 1918. See "Copy of draft rules prescribing the method of voting and transferring and counting votes at any election according to the principle of ... the single transferable vote" Cd 8768. When there's a surplus to transfer, the first votes to look at are those most recently transferred to that candidate, then the next most recently transferred etc, until the number of transferrable ballots exceeds the surplus. Once this happens, the appropriate proportion of whole ballot papers are formally transferred (ie at a value of 1). That’s referring to a consequential surplus, in which a candidate has reached the quota as a result of getting votes transferred from somebody else. The randomised selection method is needed when it’s the surplus from a candidate who reached the quota in the first round. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Jun 14, 2024 20:14:42 GMT
The EU required each member country to use a form of PR. The exact form wasn't suggested or implied. It remained up to each state. |
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Post by observer on Jun 14, 2024 20:23:30 GMT
The EU required each member country to use a form of PR. The exact form wasn't suggested or implied. It remained up to each state. Yes, PR was forced upon us |
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Post by hullenedge on Jun 14, 2024 20:36:27 GMT
The EU required each member country to use a form of PR. The exact form wasn't suggested or implied. It remained up to each state. Yes, PR was forced upon us Pretty certain that the government said if they couldn't get the legislation passed for the closed list system the 1999 elections would be fought on the proposed (1997?) single member constituencies. |
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,846 
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Post by Georg Ebner on Jun 14, 2024 20:37:49 GMT
Not quite. I believe they follow a procedure based on the original British rules for STV elections which were intended to be introduced in 1918. See "Copy of draft rules prescribing the method of voting and transferring and counting votes at any election according to the principle of ... the single transferable vote" Cd 8768. When there's a surplus to transfer, the first votes to look at are those most recently transferred to that candidate, then the next most recently transferred etc, until the number of transferrable ballots exceeds the surplus. Once this happens, the appropriate proportion of whole ballot papers are formally transferred (ie at a value of 1). That’s referring to a consequential surplus, in which a candidate has reached the quota as a result of getting votes transferred from somebody else. The randomised selection method is needed when it’s the surplus from a candidate who reached the quota in the first round. I read once en passant, though, that only most do it that way. Some returningOfficers seem to be scrupulous enough to count all. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 14, 2024 20:47:54 GMT
A List System really won't be popular for the very particular style of parish-pump, geographically-based, Irish politics.
It would introduce an even more "celebrity" style of candidate selection.
There are lots of problems with the Irish system, the list wouldn't cure them, it would exacerbate them, making central party organisation even stronger.
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Post by rcronald on Jun 14, 2024 20:52:38 GMT
A List System really won't be popular for the very particular style of parish-pump, geographically-based, Irish politics. It would introduce an even more "celebrity" style of candidate selection. There are lots of problems with the Irish system, the list wouldn't cure them, it would exacerbate them, making central party organisation even stronger. Irish politics are so incredibly confusing. They seem ridiculously old schooled. |
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cathyc
Non-Aligned
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Post by cathyc on Jun 14, 2024 21:13:30 GMT
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Post by observer on Jun 14, 2024 21:18:53 GMT
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Post by timrollpickering on Jun 14, 2024 21:42:17 GMT
There have been hints of annoyance in Brussels about the length of the Irish EE count: I'll stand corrected but doesn't the EU Parliament not formally rotate until 1 July (though there are no actual lame duck sittings)? And don't other countries have counts dragged out by getting some ballot papers back, especially from overseas embassies and/or postal votes that only have to be sent by polling day? The idea that the whole of Europe [sic] is spending the Sunday night waiting on a few individual counts is fanciful. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Jun 14, 2024 21:42:57 GMT
The solution – and this is the Liberal Democrat in me talking – is to print the ballot as two columns when required. Both sides should be happy. The huge spoils in the 2021 London mayoral election say hello. ISTR double columning has caused problems with AV and/or STV elsewhere as well. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Jun 14, 2024 21:43:34 GMT
The EU required each member country to use a form of PR. The exact form wasn't suggested or implied. It remained up to each state. I'll stand corrected but IIRC a switch to regional lists was originally a New Labour initiative and it was only subsequently that they used an EU treaty to lock PR in so it couldn't be reversed by a subsequent Parliament. |
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Post by observer on Jun 14, 2024 21:53:16 GMT
The EU required each member country to use a form of PR. The exact form wasn't suggested or implied. It remained up to each state. I'll stand corrected but IIRC a switch to regional lists was originally a New Labour initiative and it was only subsequently that they used an EU treaty to lock PR in so it couldn't be reversed by a subsequent Parliament. Labour did it because the EU told them to. Pro-eu governments almost always tried to take responsibility for things that were the EU's responsibility because they didn't want to let the cat out of the bag as to how much power - which belongs to the people - had been given away to the EU |
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Post by hullenedge on Jun 14, 2024 22:30:26 GMT
There have been hints of annoyance in Brussels about the length of the Irish EE count: I'll stand corrected but doesn't the EU Parliament not formally rotate until 1 July (though there are no actual lame duck sittings)? And don't other countries have counts dragged out by getting some ballot papers back, especially from overseas embassies and/or postal votes that only have to be sent by polling day? The idea that the whole of Europe [sic] is spending the Sunday night waiting on a few individual counts is fanciful. True re overseas voting but something or someone ruffled SH's feathers to provoke the outburst. |
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Jun 15, 2024 0:05:14 GMT
Rather pretty:- FG stronger in the South but only one seat to FF's two. Position reversed in the North. FG achieved near perfect vote balance in Midlands-NW. Carberry and Walsh were only apart by around 2.5K on first preferences and stayed within 3K of one another through every round of counting. Despite only getting 1.28 quotas on first preferences they were both elected quite comfortably. |
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Post by edgbaston on Jun 15, 2024 0:45:00 GMT
Rather pretty:- FG stronger in the South but only one seat to FF's two. Position reversed in the North. FG achieved near perfect vote balance in Midlands-NW. Carberry and Walsh were only apart by around 2.5K on first preferences and stayed within 3K of one another through every round of counting. Despite only getting 1.28 quotas on first preferences they were both elected quite comfortably. Oh terrific what a great basis on which to be elected |
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Post by johnloony on Jun 15, 2024 0:56:26 GMT
There have been hints of annoyance in Brussels about the length of the Irish EE count:- The solution – and this is the Liberal Democrat in me talking – is to print the ballot as two columns when required. Both sides should be happy. How on Earth would that help? Which preferences would the voter put in which column? |
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Jun 15, 2024 8:58:20 GMT
FG achieved near perfect vote balance in Midlands-NW. Carberry and Walsh were only apart by around 2.5K on first preferences and stayed within 3K of one another through every round of counting. Despite only getting 1.28 quotas on first preferences they were both elected quite comfortably. Oh terrific what a great basis on which to be elected It is a fundamental part of the STV system. Compare it to South where FG polled 1.36 quotas on first preference but most of it went to Sean Kelly (1.07 quotas) and so FG only got one elected. Only 33% of Kelly's surplus transferred to his running mate John Mullins but even with 100% of it transferring Mullins would still have been eliminated at the same stage as he was (count 17). If you take 40,000 first preferences from Kelly and give the to Mullins the later probably would have got in at the expense of Mhurchu (FF). Of course it isn't just a simple matter of these votes belonging to FG. Walsh and Carberry both had a certain level of appeal and different geographic bases. Between them they will have polled more than a single generic FG candidate would have. Conversely Kelly is well known and popular and some of his vote was a personal vote for him and not for his party. Parties aiming for more than one seat always try and balance the vote but unless there is a high proportion of their voters who are ultra loyal to the party there are limits as to what can be done. |
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