Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on May 5, 2021 14:46:36 GMT
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 5, 2021 19:12:35 GMT
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 5, 2021 21:59:41 GMT
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WJ
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Post by WJ on May 6, 2021 8:27:43 GMT
How come PSOE do so badly in Madrid compared to centre-left parties in most other European capital cities? Been chatting about this phenomenon with my (Spanish) partner. He reckons that Madrid is much more middle class than most other capital cities. A high salary for public workers coupled with a low tax system (as opposed to cities like Barcelona), that attracts more of this sort of voter. He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on May 6, 2021 8:32:51 GMT
How come PSOE do so badly in Madrid compared to centre-left parties in most other European capital cities? Been chatting about this phenomenon with my (Spanish) partner. He reckons that Madrid is much more middle class than most other capital cities. A high salary for public workers coupled with a low tax system (as opposed to cities like Barcelona), that attracts more of this sort of voter. He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. Intetesting points - it's not the only one, though. Stockholm has been more likely to vote for the centre right than many other places in Sweden. Rome has a right wing tradition too. |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on May 6, 2021 8:38:08 GMT
Been chatting about this phenomenon with my (Spanish) partner. He reckons that Madrid is much more middle class than most other capital cities. A high salary for public workers coupled with a low tax system (as opposed to cities like Barcelona), that attracts more of this sort of voter. He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. Intetesting points - it's not the only one, though. Stockholm has been more likely to vote for the centre right than many other places in Sweden. Rome has a right wing tradition too. Italy is a mystery to me, so I have no idea what is going on there. In Sweden, cities have generally been the domain of the bourgeoisie, while the countryside was more left wing. This goes back many centuries and the signals of it remain in many places. If you were a Stockholmer 50 years ago who had more of a left wing outlook, you would vote L, not S; if you were a kulak type in the countryside, you would vote C, not M. |
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Post by ibfc on May 6, 2021 8:48:18 GMT
How come PSOE do so badly in Madrid compared to centre-left parties in most other European capital cities? Been chatting about this phenomenon with my (Spanish) partner. He reckons that Madrid is much more middle class than most other capital cities. A high salary for public workers coupled with a low tax system (as opposed to cities like Barcelona), that attracts more of this sort of voter. He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. Does Madrid being the heart of Castile play a part here? |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on May 6, 2021 8:55:04 GMT
Been chatting about this phenomenon with my (Spanish) partner. He reckons that Madrid is much more middle class than most other capital cities. A high salary for public workers coupled with a low tax system (as opposed to cities like Barcelona), that attracts more of this sort of voter. He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. Does Madrid being the heart of Castile play a part here? Depends what you mean by heart. Certainly, it's the biggest city. But I think somewhere like Toledo would hold more of a claim to being the "heart" of Castile. |
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Post by ibfc on May 6, 2021 9:02:36 GMT
Does Madrid being the heart of Castile play a part here? Depends what you mean by heart. Certainly, it's the biggest city. But I think somewhere like Toledo would hold more of a claim to being the "heart" of Castile. I meant the historical capital. Should’ve phrased it better. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 6, 2021 12:01:31 GMT
Been chatting about this phenomenon with my (Spanish) partner. He reckons that Madrid is much more middle class than most other capital cities. A high salary for public workers coupled with a low tax system (as opposed to cities like Barcelona), that attracts more of this sort of voter. He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. Intetesting points - it's not the only one, though. Stockholm has been more likely to vote for the centre right than many other places in Sweden. Rome has a right wing tradition too. will know far better but I've seen two reasons given for this in the past: 1. Since Unification, and definitely since 1945, the overwhelming majority of migrants to Rome have been from Sicily and Sardinia and various points south, which are very conservative and sometimes fascist. By contrast, the likes of Milan, Genoa and Turin attracted migrants from all over, including the northern countryside, which in parts has a very left-wing tradition. Giorgia Meloni is from Rome and is half Sardinian, half Sicilian! You also got fascists from elsewhere in Italy fleeing there after the war to start again somewhere where they were less well-known (this is also why Antwerp has a heavy far-right presence). 2. Added onto this proletarian Right is "la Roma che conta" (the Rome that matters), the remnants of the old aristocracy and court who still linger and hold a lot of social power. Plus the religious aspect. All in all, you've got right-wing power networks that date back centuries. It's an interesting theory anyway! |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 6, 2021 12:07:35 GMT
Pablo Iglesias has announced he is quitting politics, in a blow to Pablo Iglesias.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on May 6, 2021 23:42:32 GMT
Pablo Iglesias has announced he is quitting politics, in a blow to Pablo Iglesias. This is obviously an amusing consequence of the election, but the sad thing for him is there was something of an 'Iglesias effect' bump in raw vote terms. But with the huge increase in turnout, that only translated into 3 extra seats. And the left as a whole are now as weak as ever in the capital. Ciudadanos have said they'll continue to try to act as a bulwark against extremism from outside the Assembly, but that's hardly been a consistent message of theirs since they moved into national politics and they now look like a busted flush already. A genuinely long-lasting liberal, centrist, strongly unionist alternative would be very welcome on the Spanish political scene. Ayuso went pretty hard on the 'communism vs. freedom' angle in the campaign, even saying in a TV debate that she was comfortable making a confidence-and-supply agreement with Vox because she finds Podemos "even more extreme" than the far right. The PP stance no doubt suppressed the latter's vote (and caused Vox to try their luck with some populist false-equivalence borderline racist posters) but left them perhaps able to claim that they won the argument. And of course, on top of that they effectively hold the balance of power too (in that actively voting against Ayuso would cause yet more new elections). Pablo Casado called the outcome "the beginning of the end of sanchismo" which flatteringly seems to credit the current PM with an ideology. And assumes, possibly incorrectly, that he'll be the one to replace Sánchez in La Moncloa. Más Madrid getting more votes than the PSOE is an interesting swingback too. The secretary-general of the Madrid branch of the Socialists has resigned, whilst the leader, Ángel Gabilondo, will step down and not even take his seat in the Assembly. |
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Post by therealriga on May 7, 2021 6:14:00 GMT
How come PSOE do so badly in Madrid compared to centre-left parties in most other European capital cities? That's standard political geography in Spain. If you look at any of the elections in Spain, the congressional districts, corresponding to provinces, usually have the right doing better in the main city and even better in the central districts of that city. The left do better in the outskirts of that city, industrial satellite towns and rural areas. It's almost the opposite of UK geography until recently. Well-to-do Spaniards I knew in Valencia expressed bemusement at the UK practice of richer people living outside the city. Their view was basically "what idiot with money would want to spend time stuck in traffic commuting every day when they can live close to work and leisure and cultural attractions?" Of course, quite a few of them had rural/coastal boltholes where they could spend weekends or parts of the summer. |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on May 9, 2021 18:24:51 GMT
How come PSOE do so badly in Madrid compared to centre-left parties in most other European capital cities? That's standard political geography in Spain. If you look at any of the elections in Spain, the congressional districts, corresponding to provinces, usually have the right doing better in the main city and even better in the central districts of that city. The left do better in the outskirts of that city, industrial satellite towns and rural areas. It's almost the opposite of UK geography until recently. Well-to-do Spaniards I knew in Valencia expressed bemusement at the UK practice of richer people living outside the city. Their view was basically "what idiot with money would want to spend time stuck in traffic commuting every day when they can live close to work and leisure and cultural attractions?" Of course, quite a few of them had rural/coastal boltholes where they could spend weekends or parts of the summer. That's absolutely the case in Andalusia with its LandWorkers, cf. Seville:  ...and also Valencia:  ...but not in the north - Barcelona:  Galicia being the clearest counter-case:  |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on May 9, 2021 18:29:15 GMT
Been chatting about this phenomenon with my (Spanish) partner. He reckons that Madrid is much more middle class than most other capital cities. A high salary for public workers coupled with a low tax system (as opposed to cities like Barcelona), that attracts more of this sort of voter. He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. Does Madrid being the heart of Castile play a part here? Yes, it doubtlessly does. The trend has been "centre" (=Castile) vs. the centrifugal fringes, what promises a terrible future. Although the international development towards "woke" EggHeads vs. normalos might reverse it in the longer run. |
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Post by therealriga on May 9, 2021 20:37:53 GMT
How come PSOE do so badly in Madrid compared to centre-left parties in most other European capital cities? He also cites lingering dislike for the PSOE among some well-heeled intellectual types (think Islington set) for the PSOE's shenanigans with the GAL death squads. I'm not sure I quite believe that it is the full story, but I'm sure it explains a chunk of it. I've come across that attitude as well and found it a bit ironic and questionable since the GAL were simply a renamed and repackaged version of earlier ad hoc groups which operated under cover names such as AAA, BVE and GAE and were set up by the late 1970s centre-right governments. There is almost no question in my mind that if Alianza Popular, the forerunners of the PP, had won the 1982 elections they'd have contined the dirty war against ETA using such groups. Indeed, Manuel Fraga, one of the main founders of the PP, is on record as defending the actions of the BVE, which killed at least 20, including 1 local councillor. |
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Post by therealriga on May 9, 2021 21:39:45 GMT
Pablo Iglesias has announced he is quitting politics, in a blow to Pablo Iglesias. Ciudadanos have said they'll continue to try to act as a bulwark against extremism from outside the Assembly, but that's hardly been a consistent message of theirs since they moved into national politics and they now look like a busted flush already. A genuinely long-lasting liberal, centrist, strongly unionist alternative would be very welcome on the Spanish political scene. Ciudadanos were caught to a large degree with the issue that the LibDems also ran into. Equidistance is fine at attracting votes from across the spectrum until you have to actually choose who to form a coalition with. The LibDems escaped that choice for a long time due to FPTP, but we then saw the consequences when they were forced to make a choice in 2010. It's worse if your voter base is not quite as equidistant as you think. In the LibDems' case, there was more support for a coalition with Labour. In Ciudadanos' case for a coalition with the PP. Protests from the party in question that the electoral arithmetic made that the most viable option usually fall on deaf ears. Much of the Madrid thing came from Cs getting fed up with PP corruption in Murcia: dodgy deals in awarding tenders and PP bigwigs pulling strings for themselves and families to jump the vaccine queue. Their decline is depressing, since it leaves Vox as the only viable coalition partner for the PP, legitimising the former. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on May 10, 2021 3:54:51 GMT
Ciudadanos have said they'll continue to try to act as a bulwark against extremism from outside the Assembly, but that's hardly been a consistent message of theirs since they moved into national politics and they now look like a busted flush already. A genuinely long-lasting liberal, centrist, strongly unionist alternative would be very welcome on the Spanish political scene. Ciudadanos were caught to a large degree with the issue that the LibDems also ran into. Equidistance is fine at attracting votes from across the spectrum until you have to actually choose who to form a coalition with. The LibDems escaped that choice for a long time due to FPTP, but we then saw the consequences when they were forced to make a choice in 2010. It's worse if your voter base is not quite as equidistant as you think. In the LibDems' case, there was more support for a coalition with Labour. In Ciudadanos' case for a coalition with the PP. Protests from the party in question that the electoral arithmetic made that the most viable option usually fall on deaf ears. Much of the Madrid thing came from Cs getting fed up with PP corruption in Murcia: dodgy deals in awarding tenders and PP bigwigs pulling strings for themselves and families to jump the vaccine queue. Their decline is depressing, since it leaves Vox as the only viable coalition partner for the PP, legitimising the former. 'Anti-corruption' and Catalan unionism were of course the original selling point of Cs before they ever pivoted to equidistance. I am not aware of any formal PP-Vox coalitions yet (with the latter having actual ministers) at the regional level but as I said, when challenged about governing with their support during a TV debate, Ayuso almost seemed to relish legitimising them. |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on May 10, 2021 15:24:51 GMT
Ciudadanos were caught to a large degree with the issue that the LibDems also ran into. Equidistance is fine at attracting votes from across the spectrum until you have to actually choose who to form a coalition with. The LibDems escaped that choice for a long time due to FPTP, but we then saw the consequences when they were forced to make a choice in 2010. It's worse if your voter base is not quite as equidistant as you think. In the LibDems' case, there was more support for a coalition with Labour. In Ciudadanos' case for a coalition with the PP. Protests from the party in question that the electoral arithmetic made that the most viable option usually fall on deaf ears. Much of the Madrid thing came from Cs getting fed up with PP corruption in Murcia: dodgy deals in awarding tenders and PP bigwigs pulling strings for themselves and families to jump the vaccine queue. Their decline is depressing, since it leaves Vox as the only viable coalition partner for the PP, legitimising the former. 'Anti-corruption' and Catalan unionism were of course the original selling point of Cs before they ever pivoted to equidistance. I am not aware of any formal PP-Vox coalitions yet (with the latter having actual ministers) at the regional level but as I said, when challenged about governing with their support during a TV debate, Ayuso almost seemed to relish legitimising them. An exVox-MP in Murcia was made Education&Culture-Minister there, but You are certainly aware of that. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 10, 2021 17:36:52 GMT
Ayuso will want to be in Vox's good books. Not for the leadership as is, but because there will be gentlemen in the barrio of Salamanca who have the sort of power, influence and cash that could easily be switched from Vox to her.
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