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Post by westmercian on Sept 25, 2018 18:58:53 GMT
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Sept 25, 2018 19:01:31 GMT
So the EU only has another 1,541 years to live? I think they'll take that comparison..
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Post by westmercian on Sept 25, 2018 19:03:37 GMT
So the EU only has another 1,541 years to live? I think they'll take that comparison.. Well, the Republic of Rome didn't last long after the c.100 BC which I reckon is the equivalent to the EU today... and Rome itself of course lost power in the Empire(s) only a few centuries later. Really, the Republic around 100-150 BC was as good as it got for Rome. |
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Post by Antiochian on Sept 25, 2018 19:22:50 GMT
So the EU only has another 1,541 years to live? I think they'll take that comparison.. Well, the Republic of Rome didn't last long after the c.100 BC which I reckon is the equivalent to the EU today... and Rome itself of course lost power in the Empire(s) only a few centuries later. Really, the Republic around 100-150 BC was as good as it got for Rome. Interesting thought process.. of course Julius Caesar had no ambitions... (or at least Shakespeare's Mark Antony would have us believe so). Are the MEPs a Senatorial class? Are Tusk, Barnier and J-C a triumvirate? Rotating consuls? They would claim they have lifted the best of ancient Rome, but maybe they have lifted the worst.. or the system most amenable to being hijacked by the ambitious. Raises the question whether the Ever Closer Union with its almost non-existent democratic underpinnings might lay the ground for a dictatorship. Seems like there is no-one to stand in the way of a cunning devil taking control.. where are the checks and balances? After all Poland did not want their "representative" Tusk in his current role and the triumvirs over-ruled them. |
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Post by westmercian on Sept 25, 2018 19:29:51 GMT
The Commission (and the other top jobs in the EU system) are a bit like the consuls, praetors and quaestors in the Republic. The Parliament is a bit like the tribal assembly: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_AssemblyThe Court (CJEU) is a bit like the Senate (which did not have legislative powers, but issued decrees which were or were not followed depending on other powers at play at the time!) And the Council is a bit like the governors of the provinces of course!! |
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Post by Antiochian on Sept 25, 2018 19:35:43 GMT
The Commission (and the other top jobs in the EU system) are a bit like the consuls, praetors and quaestors in the Republic. The Parliament is a bit like the tribal assembly: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_AssemblyThe Court (CJEU) is a bit like the Senate (which did not have legislative powers, but issued decrees which were or were not followed depending on other powers at play at the time!) And the Council is a bit like the governors of the provinces of course!! Except Roman governors represented the centre at the periphery rather than the periphery at the centre.. Roman governors didn't assemble.. |
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Post by westmercian on Sept 25, 2018 19:40:20 GMT
The Commission (and the other top jobs in the EU system) are a bit like the consuls, praetors and quaestors in the Republic. The Parliament is a bit like the tribal assembly: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_AssemblyThe Court (CJEU) is a bit like the Senate (which did not have legislative powers, but issued decrees which were or were not followed depending on other powers at play at the time!) And the Council is a bit like the governors of the provinces of course!! Except Roman governors represented the centre at the periphery rather than the periphery at the centre.. Roman governors didn't assemble.. Granted. The way the EU has been formed is of course a reverse empire-building to how the Roman Empire formed, ie the provinces have come together in Brussels rather than Rome got the provinces together in-the-field. The Council is therefore, for now, the main anomaly, which is probably why it is and will continue to be slowly eroded in powers, starting with majority voting and then powers transferred to the Parliament/Commission. The big change will come when there will be a EU-wide vote for a 'president' position, which of course, just like the Roman emperor was never actually given the title of Emperor (!) will not be given a strong title to appease the French president et al. The new presidential position will slowly gain powers from/over the Commission (ie to appoint) just like Julius and Augustus. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Sept 25, 2018 20:04:04 GMT
Whereas outside the EU, the USA, Russia, Ukraine are all beacons of good government, stability and consensus. Norway clearly does not have the problem with right wingers that Sweden has, and the possibility of some racist nutter massacring people would be impossible there. Australian politics are all just dandy now - if only we had leaders of their calibre here! South America is forging ahead and a lesson to us all on how to run our countries. The middle east is doing even better. Britain, having voted to leave the EU, now has a popular and effective government held to account by an intelligent opposition and the issues of devolved government in Scotland and NI which were pressing back in 2015 have been resolved. India and China have no problems with tub-thumping nationalism at all. Or alternatively, there's been a global financial crisis with ongoing economic fall-out and governments all over the world are struggling to manage both that and the effects of the internet on public discourse, let alone cope with those of a 2nd industrial revolution. Of course, the Deplorables in EU countries do have the option of pretending to be doing something about it by shouting slogans about the EU. But it seems there's always another scapegoat handy anyway. Gone slightly off-piste there.. I was referring to the failing (fallen) Swedish govt and the J-C inspired Ever Closer Union. Do you see a way that happens in a house so divided? What you actually referred to were: You should read your own posts sometimes. |
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Post by Antiochian on Sept 25, 2018 21:42:54 GMT
Gone slightly off-piste there.. I was referring to the failing (fallen) Swedish govt and the J-C inspired Ever Closer Union. Do you see a way that happens in a house so divided? What you actually referred to were: You should read your own posts sometimes. Tsk, tsk.. partial quoting... I was given a spanking at the instigation of one of your fellow party members just a few weeks ago... but unlike him I shall not report it. |
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cj
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Post by cj on Sept 26, 2018 2:12:51 GMT
Granted. The way the EU has been formed is of course a reverse empire-building to how the Roman Empire formed, ie the provinces have come together in Brussels rather than Rome got the provinces together in-the-field. The Council is therefore, for now, the main anomaly, which is probably why it is and will continue to be slowly eroded in powers, starting with majority voting and then powers transferred to the Parliament/Commission. The big change will come when there will be a EU-wide vote for a 'president' position, which of course, just like the Roman emperor was never actually given the title of Emperor (!) will not be given a strong title to appease the French president et al. The new presidential position will slowly gain powers from/over the Commission (ie to appoint) just like Julius and Augustus. Lol, you make it sound like they were out gathering flowers as opposed to "Carthago delenda est"
But otherwise a confederation established in peace is kinda the opposite of the creation of the Roman Empire
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Post by Antiochian on Sept 26, 2018 7:40:06 GMT
Granted. The way the EU has been formed is of course a reverse empire-building to how the Roman Empire formed, ie the provinces have come together in Brussels rather than Rome got the provinces together in-the-field. The Council is therefore, for now, the main anomaly, which is probably why it is and will continue to be slowly eroded in powers, starting with majority voting and then powers transferred to the Parliament/Commission. The big change will come when there will be a EU-wide vote for a 'president' position, which of course, just like the Roman emperor was never actually given the title of Emperor (!) will not be given a strong title to appease the French president et al. The new presidential position will slowly gain powers from/over the Commission (ie to appoint) just like Julius and Augustus. Lol, you make it sound like they were out gathering flowers as opposed to "Carthago delenda est"
But otherwise a confederation established in peace is kinda the opposite of the creation of the Roman Empire
Pax Romana or Pax Bruxellaensis... they all think they are making making peace... those on the receiving end often beg to differ... |
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Post by westmercian on Sept 26, 2018 10:23:20 GMT
Granted. The way the EU has been formed is of course a reverse empire-building to how the Roman Empire formed, ie the provinces have come together in Brussels rather than Rome got the provinces together in-the-field. The Council is therefore, for now, the main anomaly, which is probably why it is and will continue to be slowly eroded in powers, starting with majority voting and then powers transferred to the Parliament/Commission. The big change will come when there will be a EU-wide vote for a 'president' position, which of course, just like the Roman emperor was never actually given the title of Emperor (!) will not be given a strong title to appease the French president et al. The new presidential position will slowly gain powers from/over the Commission (ie to appoint) just like Julius and Augustus. Lol, you make it sound like they were out gathering flowers as opposed to "Carthago delenda est"
But otherwise a confederation established in peace is kinda the opposite of the creation of the Roman Empire
The EU is a creation of the wars that the present European nations endured for centuries right up to WWII. It is a product of war. Even that other confederation in Europe, the Swiss one, is a product of war. |
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cj
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Post by cj on Sept 26, 2018 17:55:17 GMT
Lol, you make it sound like they were out gathering flowers as opposed to "Carthago delenda est"
But otherwise a confederation established in peace is kinda the opposite of the creation of the Roman Empire
The EU is a creation of the wars that the present European nations endured for centuries right up to WWII. It is a product of war. Even that other confederation in Europe, the Swiss one, is a product of war. and all Greeks are philosophers and other such reductive reasoning
Something established as a result of there having been a war and created by free choice is not the same as something established as a direct consequence of a war or the imposition of it by the victor on the loser, often noticeable by the salted city and corpse count!
An argument/world view can be established that every human endeavour is a product of war by tracing a its lineage to a conflict at an earlier date (which was down to a previous conflict cause by an earlier war, and on and on), but I see no reason to bother the Swede's with it
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Andrew_S
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Post by Andrew_S on Oct 5, 2018 22:36:03 GMT
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Oct 13, 2018 16:36:52 GMT
Looks like there's been a split in the Alliance. C and L will not vote for Kristersson as the government would rely on support from SD.
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seanf
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Post by seanf on Oct 13, 2018 16:54:27 GMT
Looks like there's been a split in the Alliance. C and L will not vote for Kristersson as the government would rely on support from SD. I don't see how the Alliance can form a government, without confidence and supply from the SD's. |
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Andrew_S
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Post by Andrew_S on Oct 13, 2018 18:21:24 GMT
Looks like there's been a split in the Alliance. C and L will not vote for Kristersson as the government would rely on support from SD. The question is whether C and L will support the left-wing coalition parties, or at least not stand in their way. |
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seanf
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Post by seanf on Oct 13, 2018 18:50:28 GMT
Looks like there's been a split in the Alliance. C and L will not vote for Kristersson as the government would rely on support from SD. The question is whether C and L will support the left-wing coalition parties, or at least not stand in their way. I expect that if they do support the Left, they'll fall under the 4% threshold, next time. |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Oct 13, 2018 20:01:12 GMT
My guess is that they'll not form a pact with the left parties either. My suspicion is that Lööf smells blood in the water and will tank the next round of negotiations that will presumably be lead by S. I think she's angling to be PM with tacit support from M and S. Dangerous game.
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 13, 2018 23:45:57 GMT
My guess is that they'll not form a pact with the left parties either. My suspicion is that Lööf smells blood in the water and will tank the next round of negotiations that will presumably be lead by S. I think she's angling to be PM with tacit support from M and S. Dangerous game. A government made up of a MicroParty at 5-10% - that would be a new record. (Or was there a short-living cabinet in Norway of the ChristDemocrats [under Bondevig]?) |
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