Israeli election

[Merseymike]

Aug 10, 2022 18:15:18 GMT rcronald said:

Aug 10, 2022 17:47:38 GMT CatholicLeft said:

How exactly are you defining the "far-left"? The shift seems to be an emphasis onto issues such as the cost of living and the housing - bread and butter for a party of the centre-left, and not driven by the personality cults evident in other parties.  How is Gilad Kariv "far-left", or Naama Lazini?  Yair Fink, formerly chief of staff for  Shelly Yacimovich, and who also backed Ehud Barak when he left Labour, is a religious Zionist.
There is a generational change, certainly, but a swing to the far-left - that is far off the mark. 

I used far left in quotations for a reason,
as it is more of a shift to members who ACT more militantly then Labour used to (Meretz was always the party with the militant MKs).
1.Barak was/is the most hated figure in Israeli politics and is widely viewed in Israel as someone who campaigned as a Third-way moderate but governed to the left of people like Peres and Rabin (and later lost by a landslide)
2.Michaeli herself is viewed as someone who ideologically belongs to Meretz and not Labour (a party that until a couple of years ago had a lot of social/cultural moderates who are now voting Gantz)
3.Kariv is pretty widely viewed as far left because of his beliefs about the separation of Synagogue and state and his affiliation with Reform Judaism (which basically has 0% support in Israel and is actively hated by a large majority of the population)
4.Raitan is viewed as a C tier celebrity who was basically on sick leave the entire year

The majority of US Jews are Reform but I don't hear Israeli refusal of their support. They are also more Zionist than many conservative US Jews. However they choose to stay in the US for a reason!

As other parties appear to have taken over the more socially conservative elements who may have voted Labor at one time, perhaps there is no obvious need for separate Labor and Meretz parties if they are essentially offering the same thing.

[rcronald]

Aug 10, 2022 19:14:23 GMT Merseymike said:

Aug 10, 2022 18:15:18 GMT rcronald said:

I used far left in quotations for a reason,
as it is more of a shift to members who ACT more militantly then Labour used to (Meretz was always the party with the militant MKs).
1.Barak was/is the most hated figure in Israeli politics and is widely viewed in Israel as someone who campaigned as a Third-way moderate but governed to the left of people like Peres and Rabin (and later lost by a landslide)
2.Michaeli herself is viewed as someone who ideologically belongs to Meretz and not Labour (a party that until a couple of years ago had a lot of social/cultural moderates who are now voting Gantz)
3.Kariv is pretty widely viewed as far left because of his beliefs about the separation of Synagogue and state and his affiliation with Reform Judaism (which basically has 0% support in Israel and is actively hated by a large majority of the population)
4.Raitan is viewed as a C tier celebrity who was basically on sick leave the entire year

The majority of US Jews are Reform but I don't hear Israeli refusal of their support. They are also more Zionist than many conservative US Jews. However they choose to stay in the US for a reason!

As other parties appear to have taken over the more socially conservative elements who may have voted Labor at one time, perhaps there is no obvious need for separate Labor and Meretz parties if they are essentially offering the same thing.

I 100% agree that Labour and Meretz should merge.

[Georg Ebner]

Aug 10, 2022 18:32:23 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Hopefully we get a new Netanyahu-Almost-Self-aware advert this year.

As an Austrian i have a special relationship to Netanyahu: Firstly because of the parallels with the causa Kurz (although the accusations against Bibi might be better based? - i do not know). Secondly, because he warned the latter and urged him to take Covid more serious, what certainly saved lives here.  

[Georg Ebner]

Aug 10, 2022 19:56:15 GMT rcronald said:

Aug 10, 2022 19:14:23 GMT Merseymike said:

The majority of US Jews are Reform but I don't hear Israeli refusal of their support. They are also more Zionist than many conservative US Jews. However they choose to stay in the US for a reason!

As other parties appear to have taken over the more socially conservative elements who may have voted Labor at one time, perhaps there is no obvious need for separate Labor and Meretz parties if they are essentially offering the same thing.

I 100% agree that Labour and Meretz should merge.

But will not now, that the Purples are disbanding, the Greens become dominant in Meretz?
Or is Labour itself already too green for staying aside?

[rcronald]

Aug 11, 2022 16:54:38 GMT Georg Ebner said:

Aug 10, 2022 19:56:15 GMT rcronald said:

I 100% agree that Labour and Meretz should merge.

But will not now, that the Purples are disbanding, the Greens become dominant in Meretz?
Or is Labour itself already too green for staying aside?

Labour lost all of their moderate members and Meretz would not cross the current threshold if it did not exist (aka, people vote for them mostly as an act of mercy).

[rcronald]

Well Lads,
The Primary is over and we have the official Likud party list:
*Note*: the party has 3 main wings (SocDem/Populist,Liberal/Libertarian,Conservative) and I’ll write after each person the faction that they belong to.

1.Bibi Netanyahu (Liberal) - Old school Economic dry who doesn’t care about social issues at all, moved to the right with the rest of the country over the last 3 decades
2.Yariv Levin (Conservative) - Economic and Social dry, known for his long and fierce efforts to reform the Israeli Justice system
3.Eli Cohen (Populist) - Mostly cares about driving down the cost of goods wit he a pragmatic wet (and even social democratic) orientation, also Kahlon‘s protégé.
4.Yoav Galant (Populist) - retired Major General who came (like Eli Cohen) from Kulanu. Mostly focused on defense.
5.David Amsalem (Populist) - Outspoken anti-Ashkenazi racist pig. A self described SocDem
6.Amir Ohama (Libertarian) - Married Gay man with Children, passionate about Gun Rights.
7.Yoav Kisch (Liberal) - His grandpa was the highest-ranking Jew ever to serve in the British Army (🥰) , focused on Father’s rights (mostly because of a nasty divorce he had) and grew up in the same neighborhood as my Mum!
8.Nir Barkat (Liberal) - wildly expected to be the next Likud leader, an economic dry mostly focused on economic issues.
9.Miri Regev (SocDem/Populist) - former Brigadier general known for her strong populist orientation who mostly focuses on cultural issues, also a SocDem who publicly called for an 80% top income tax bracket.
10.Miki Zohar (SocDem/Populist) - a self described SocDem, infamous for stating that the only things he cares in life about are Money,Power and Respect.
11.Avi Dichter (Liberal) - Former Dictator of Shin Bet, mostly focused on internal security and counter terrorism.
12.Israel Katz (Conservative) - veteran MK and a machine politician, famous for being made fun off by comedy shows and strange voice.
13.Shlomo Karhi (Conservative/Libertarian) - A theocrat and a Libertarian at the same time, cares mostly about lowering taxes, pissing unions and being a hardcore economic dry.
14.Idit Silman (Conservative) - Came from Yamina and was a major part in collapsing the Bennet Government.
15.Danny Danon (Conservative) - former Israeli representative to the UN, known for his VERY hardline views on foreign policy but also his cultural Conservatism.
16.Amichai Chikli (Conservative) - Came from Yamina and was instrumental in collapsing the Bennet Government.
17.David Bitan (Populist/Machine) - A machine politician who controls the Likud operation in the southern TLV suburbs, also very (very) corrupt.
18.Yuli Edelstein (Conservative) - One of the most prominent refuseniks in the Soviet Union.
19.Eli Revivo (Conservative) - Machine politician and brother of the mayor of Lod (a poor city where the Ben Gurion Airport is located).
20.Galit Distel-Atbaryan (Liberal/Populist) - a well known Novelist known for her strong anti-Woke rhetoric while holding some social/cultural liberal views at the same time
21.Nissim Vaturi (No idea tbh) - businessman and a party activist (first time I’ve ever heard of him)
22.Shalom Danino (Machine?) - Brother of the mayor of Ofakim, a poor town in the middle of nowhere
23.Haim Katz (Socialist/Machine) - Union leader, biggest Machine politician in the party and self described Democratic Socialist who believes in nationalized industry and worker control of the means of production.
24.Ofir Akunis (Liberal) - known for being boring (also from the neighborhood I live in).
25.Tali Gotlib (Populist?) - a well known (and shouty) defense attorney, wants to purge the left leaning State’s Attorney’s office.
26.Enoch Milnitzki (Machine) - a Petah Tikva city council member, a cult member and a machine politician in the Eastern TLV suburbs.
27.Boaz Bismuth (Liberal) - The former editor of Israel Today (the Israeli equivalent of The Daily Mail but free) and a close Bibi ally
28. Gal Hirsch (Populist) -A former Brigadier general who got f*cked by the Israeli ministry of Justice (the accusations against him have been proven false)
29.Eli Dellal (Machine) - Deputy Mayor of Netanya and a machine politician.
30.Gila Gamliel (Liberal/Machine) - Head of the Yemenite Machine, an economic dry. Also lives in the same neighborhood as me.
31. Ofir Katz (Populist?) - an unknown SPAD
32.May Golan (Populist/Conservative) - anti Illegal immigration (and the harm they bring to working class areas of TLV) activist, former Otzma Yehudit member.
33.Dan Iluz (Con?) - Jerusalem City council member, Barkat ally and an immigrant from France.
34.Ariel Kallner (Con) - Born Again Jew with nationalist tendencies.
35.Eti Atiya (SocDem/Machine) - the former secretary of Haim Katz during his time as the head of the Israel Aerospace Industries Union and his protégé. A self described SocDem.
36.Amit Halevi (Liberal) - don’t know anything about him but was encouraged to vote for him as a member of the Liberal wing of Likud (I didn’t lol)

[iain]

Given the plethora of options in Israeli politics, you might expect the parties to be a little more coherent!

[maxque]

Aug 11, 2022 20:02:47 GMT iain said:

Given the plethora of options in Israeli politics, you might expect the parties to be a little more coherent!

The parties are coherent. For Likud, that's mindless adoration of Netanhayu and casual racism against non-Jews.

[Khunanup]

Aug 11, 2022 17:45:15 GMT rcronald said:

Well Lads,
The Primary is over and we have the official Likud party list:
*Note*: the party has 3 main wings (SocDem/Populist,Liberal/Libertarian,Conservative) and I’ll write after each person the faction that they belong to.

1.Bibi Netanyahu (Liberal) - Old school Economic dry who doesn’t care about social issues at all, moved to the right with the rest of the country over the last 3 decades
2.Yariv Levin (Conservative) - Economic and Social dry, known for his long and fierce efforts to reform the Israeli Justice system
3.Eli Cohen (Populist) - Mostly cares about driving down the cost of goods wit he a pragmatic wet (and even social democratic) orientation, also Kahlon‘s protégé.
4.Yoav Galant (Populist) - retired Major General who came (like Eli Cohen) from Kulanu. Mostly focused on defense.
5.David Amsalem (Populist) - Outspoken anti-Ashkenazi racist pig. A self described SocDem
6.Amir Ohama (Libertarian) - Married Gay man with Children, passionate about Gun Rights.
7.Yoav Kisch (Liberal) - His grandpa was the highest-ranking Jew ever to serve in the British Army (🥰) , focused on Father’s rights (mostly because of a nasty divorce he had) and grew up in the same neighborhood as my Mum!
8.Nir Barkat (Liberal) - wildly expected to be the next Likud leader, an economic dry mostly focused on economic issues.
9.Miri Regev (SocDem/Populist) - former Brigadier general known for her strong populist orientation who mostly focuses on cultural issues, also a SocDem who publicly called for an 80% top income tax bracket.
10.Miki Zohar (SocDem/Populist) - a self described SocDem, infamous for stating that the only things he cares in life about are Money,Power and Respect.
11.Avi Dichter (Liberal) - Former Dictator of Shin Bet, mostly focused on internal security and counter terrorism.
12.Israel Katz (Conservative) - veteran MK and a machine politician, famous for being made fun off by comedy shows and strange voice.
13.Shlomo Karhi (Conservative/Libertarian) - A theocrat and a Libertarian at the same time, cares mostly about lowering taxes, pissing unions and being a hardcore economic dry.
14.Idit Silman (Conservative) - Came from Yamina and was a major part in collapsing the Bennet Government.
15.Danny Danon (Conservative) - former Israeli representative to the UN, known for his VERY hardline views on foreign policy but also his cultural Conservatism.
16.Amichai Chikli (Conservative) - Came from Yamina and was instrumental in collapsing the Bennet Government.
17.David Bitan (Populist/Machine) - A machine politician who controls the Likud operation in the southern TLV suburbs, also very (very) corrupt.
18.Yuli Edelstein (Conservative) - One of the most prominent refuseniks in the Soviet Union.
19.Eli Revivo (Conservative) - Machine politician and brother of the mayor of Lod (a poor city where the Ben Gurion Airport is located).
20.Galit Distel-Atbaryan (Liberal/Populist) - a well known Novelist known for her strong anti-Woke rhetoric while holding some social/cultural liberal views at the same time
21.Nissim Vaturi (No idea tbh) - businessman and a party activist (first time I’ve ever heard of him)
22.Shalom Danino (Machine?) - Brother of the mayor of Ofakim, a poor town in the middle of nowhere
23.Haim Katz (Socialist/Machine) - Union leader, biggest Machine politician in the party and self described Democratic Socialist who believes in nationalized industry and worker control of the means of production.
24.Ofir Akunis (Liberal) - known for being boring (also from the neighborhood I live in).
25.Tali Gotlib (Populist?) - a well known (and shouty) defense attorney, wants to purge the left leaning State’s Attorney’s office.
26.Enoch Milnitzki (Machine) - a Petah Tikva city council member, a cult member and a machine politician in the Eastern TLV suburbs.
27.Boaz Bismuth (Liberal) - The former editor of Israel Today (the Israeli equivalent of The Daily Mail but free) and a close Bibi ally
28. Gal Hirsch (Populist) -A former Brigadier general who got f*cked by the Israeli ministry of Justice (the accusations against him have been proven false)
29.Eli Dellal (Machine) - Deputy Mayor of Netanya and a machine politician.
30.Gila Gamliel (Liberal/Machine) - Head of the Yemenite Machine, an economic dry. Also lives in the same neighborhood as me.
31. Ofir Katz (Populist?) - an unknown SPAD
32.May Golan (Populist/Conservative) - anti Illegal immigration (and the harm they bring to working class areas of TLV) activist, former Otzma Yehudit member.
33.Dan Iluz (Con?) - Jerusalem City council member, Barkat ally and an immigrant from France.
34.Ariel Kallner (Con) - Born Again Jew with nationalist tendencies.
35.Eti Atiya (SocDem/Machine) - the former secretary of Haim Katz during his time as the head of the Israel Aerospace Industries Union and his protégé. A self described SocDem.
36.Amit Halevi (Liberal) - don’t know anything about him but was encouraged to vote for him as a member of the Liberal wing of Likud (I didn’t lol)

That's an utterly bizarre definition of Liberal to include Netanyahu within its confines.

It does make it difficult to take anything you've written seriously...

[rcronald]

Aug 11, 2022 20:32:41 GMT Khunanup said:

Aug 11, 2022 17:45:15 GMT rcronald said:

Well Lads,
The Primary is over and we have the official Likud party list:
*Note*: the party has 3 main wings (SocDem/Populist,Liberal/Libertarian,Conservative) and I’ll write after each person the faction that they belong to.

1.Bibi Netanyahu (Liberal) - Old school Economic dry who doesn’t care about social issues at all, moved to the right with the rest of the country over the last 3 decades
2.Yariv Levin (Conservative) - Economic and Social dry, known for his long and fierce efforts to reform the Israeli Justice system
3.Eli Cohen (Populist) - Mostly cares about driving down the cost of goods wit he a pragmatic wet (and even social democratic) orientation, also Kahlon‘s protégé.
4.Yoav Galant (Populist) - retired Major General who came (like Eli Cohen) from Kulanu. Mostly focused on defense.
5.David Amsalem (Populist) - Outspoken anti-Ashkenazi racist pig. A self described SocDem
6.Amir Ohama (Libertarian) - Married Gay man with Children, passionate about Gun Rights.
7.Yoav Kisch (Liberal) - His grandpa was the highest-ranking Jew ever to serve in the British Army (🥰) , focused on Father’s rights (mostly because of a nasty divorce he had) and grew up in the same neighborhood as my Mum!
8.Nir Barkat (Liberal) - wildly expected to be the next Likud leader, an economic dry mostly focused on economic issues.
9.Miri Regev (SocDem/Populist) - former Brigadier general known for her strong populist orientation who mostly focuses on cultural issues, also a SocDem who publicly called for an 80% top income tax bracket.
10.Miki Zohar (SocDem/Populist) - a self described SocDem, infamous for stating that the only things he cares in life about are Money,Power and Respect.
11.Avi Dichter (Liberal) - Former Dictator of Shin Bet, mostly focused on internal security and counter terrorism.
12.Israel Katz (Conservative) - veteran MK and a machine politician, famous for being made fun off by comedy shows and strange voice.
13.Shlomo Karhi (Conservative/Libertarian) - A theocrat and a Libertarian at the same time, cares mostly about lowering taxes, pissing unions and being a hardcore economic dry.
14.Idit Silman (Conservative) - Came from Yamina and was a major part in collapsing the Bennet Government.
15.Danny Danon (Conservative) - former Israeli representative to the UN, known for his VERY hardline views on foreign policy but also his cultural Conservatism.
16.Amichai Chikli (Conservative) - Came from Yamina and was instrumental in collapsing the Bennet Government.
17.David Bitan (Populist/Machine) - A machine politician who controls the Likud operation in the southern TLV suburbs, also very (very) corrupt.
18.Yuli Edelstein (Conservative) - One of the most prominent refuseniks in the Soviet Union.
19.Eli Revivo (Conservative) - Machine politician and brother of the mayor of Lod (a poor city where the Ben Gurion Airport is located).
20.Galit Distel-Atbaryan (Liberal/Populist) - a well known Novelist known for her strong anti-Woke rhetoric while holding some social/cultural liberal views at the same time
21.Nissim Vaturi (No idea tbh) - businessman and a party activist (first time I’ve ever heard of him)
22.Shalom Danino (Machine?) - Brother of the mayor of Ofakim, a poor town in the middle of nowhere
23.Haim Katz (Socialist/Machine) - Union leader, biggest Machine politician in the party and self described Democratic Socialist who believes in nationalized industry and worker control of the means of production.
24.Ofir Akunis (Liberal) - known for being boring (also from the neighborhood I live in).
25.Tali Gotlib (Populist?) - a well known (and shouty) defense attorney, wants to purge the left leaning State’s Attorney’s office.
26.Enoch Milnitzki (Machine) - a Petah Tikva city council member, a cult member and a machine politician in the Eastern TLV suburbs.
27.Boaz Bismuth (Liberal) - The former editor of Israel Today (the Israeli equivalent of The Daily Mail but free) and a close Bibi ally
28. Gal Hirsch (Populist) -A former Brigadier general who got f*cked by the Israeli ministry of Justice (the accusations against him have been proven false)
29.Eli Dellal (Machine) - Deputy Mayor of Netanya and a machine politician.
30.Gila Gamliel (Liberal/Machine) - Head of the Yemenite Machine, an economic dry. Also lives in the same neighborhood as me.
31. Ofir Katz (Populist?) - an unknown SPAD
32.May Golan (Populist/Conservative) - anti Illegal immigration (and the harm they bring to working class areas of TLV) activist, former Otzma Yehudit member.
33.Dan Iluz (Con?) - Jerusalem City council member, Barkat ally and an immigrant from France.
34.Ariel Kallner (Con) - Born Again Jew with nationalist tendencies.
35.Eti Atiya (SocDem/Machine) - the former secretary of Haim Katz during his time as the head of the Israel Aerospace Industries Union and his protégé. A self described SocDem.
36.Amit Halevi (Liberal) - don’t know anything about him but was encouraged to vote for him as a member of the Liberal wing of Likud (I didn’t lol)

That's an utterly bizarre definition of Liberal to include Netanyahu within its confines.

It does make it difficult to take anything you've written seriously...

I’m using Likud definitions, all Likud members would be considered relatively hard right in the UK (outside of the SocDems on economics).

[rcronald]

Aug 11, 2022 20:02:47 GMT iain said:

Given the plethora of options in Israeli politics, you might expect the parties to be a little more coherent!

Israeli parties usually have like 2/3 guiding principles and a lot of differences after that!
Likud would usually incorporate ideas and agenda items of all 3 wings (traditionally it has always been 2 but the Conservative wing has gained a lot of strength in the last decade).
For example:
Liberals - Low deficits, Free Trade (outside of things like agriculture),tax cuts, keeping overt Socially Conservative legislation to the bare minimum, strong YIMBY legislation.
Conservatives - Justice reform,hardline on terrorism, no overtly socially Liberal legislation
SocDem/Populist - extremely high children's allowance, tall tariffs on Agriculture, anti-woke/populist rhetoric and legislation, Social housing (through public-private partnership as the other wings would lose their bloody mind if it was build by the government),No crackdown on professional Unions,Free child “education” from birth (would probably get nuked by the other wings eventually lol).

[timrollpickering]

Likud's full name is "Likud - National Liberal Movement" and amongst the parties it consolidated was the old Liberal Party which was a classical/economical liberal party on the centre right (there was a left liberal element that seems to have repeatedly merged and split before disappearing off into Labor). Netanyahu has overseen economic liberalisation as both Finance Minister and Prime Minister.

He's also demonstrated some ideological flexibility to chase votes wherever so would not be totally out of place with certain liberal parties on the ground, however much their national bodies and keyboard warriors might protest.

[rcronald]

Aug 12, 2022 12:51:27 GMT timrollpickering said:

Likud's full name is "Likud - National Liberal Movement" and amongst the parties it consolidated was the old Liberal Party which was a classical/economical liberal party on the centre right (there was a left liberal element that seems to have repeatedly merged and split before disappearing off into Labor). Netanyahu has overseen economic liberalisation as both Finance Minister and Prime Minister.

He's also demonstrated some ideological flexibility to chase votes wherever so would not be totally out of place with certain liberal parties on the ground, however much their national bodies and keyboard warriors might protest.

Likud has always been considered to be the pro-multiculturalism (*Jewish Multiculturalism) party in Israel as well, as Labour looked at Mizrahi culture as “Arab” and inferior.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Aug 12, 2022 13:37:09 GMT rcronald said:

Aug 12, 2022 12:51:27 GMT timrollpickering said:

Likud's full name is "Likud - National Liberal Movement" and amongst the parties it consolidated was the old Liberal Party which was a classical/economical liberal party.

He's also demonstrated some ideological flexibility to chase votes wherever so would not be totally out of place with certain liberal parties on the ground, however much their national bodies and keyboard warriors might protest.

Likud has always been considered to be the pro-multiculturalism (*Jewish Multiculturalism) party in Israel as well, as Labour looked at Mizrahi culture as “Arab” and inferior.

What's the Mizrahi position in Israeli society like these days? Is it still somewhat apart, or more central?

[rcronald]

Aug 12, 2022 13:42:51 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Aug 12, 2022 13:37:09 GMT rcronald said:

Likud has always been considered to be the pro-multiculturalism (*Jewish Multiculturalism) party in Israel as well, as Labour looked at Mizrahi culture as “Arab” and inferior.

What's the Mizrahi position in Israeli society like these days? Is it still somewhat apart, or more central?

Social Mobility under Bibi has apparently been extremely strong, with most Mizrahis now being middle class and Arabs rapidly gaining wealth as well.

[Georg Ebner]

Aug 12, 2022 12:51:27 GMT timrollpickering said:

Likud's full name is "Likud - National Liberal Movement" and amongst the parties it consolidated was the old Liberal Party which was a classical/economical liberal party on the centre right (there was a left liberal element that seems to have repeatedly merged and split before disappearing off into Labor). Netanyahu has overseen economic liberalisation as both Finance Minister and Prime Minister.

He's also demonstrated some ideological flexibility to chase votes wherever so would not be totally out of place with certain liberal parties on the ground, however much their national bodies and keyboard warriors might protest.

Some might claim, that old Labour lives only on in Likud, which is still assembling an antiLabour-coalition...

[rcronald]

Aug 12, 2022 18:07:20 GMT Georg Ebner said:

Aug 12, 2022 12:51:27 GMT timrollpickering said:

Likud's full name is "Likud - National Liberal Movement" and amongst the parties it consolidated was the old Liberal Party which was a classical/economical liberal party on the centre right (there was a left liberal element that seems to have repeatedly merged and split before disappearing off into Labor). Netanyahu has overseen economic liberalisation as both Finance Minister and Prime Minister.

He's also demonstrated some ideological flexibility to chase votes wherever so would not be totally out of place with certain liberal parties on the ground, however much their national bodies and keyboard warriors might protest.

Some might claim, that old Labour lives only on in Likud, which is still assembling an antiLabour-coalition...

Ben Gurion’s last political party eventually merged into Likud! (and the same is true about Moshe Dayan)

[CatholicLeft]

Aug 12, 2022 19:20:18 GMT rcronald said:

Aug 12, 2022 18:07:20 GMT Georg Ebner said:

Some might claim, that old Labour lives only on in Likud, which is still assembling an antiLabour-coalition...

Ben Gurion’s last political party eventually merged into Likud! (and the same is true about Moshe Dayan)

Moshe Dayan dis not join Likud:he served in Begin's 1977 governemnt as Foreign Secretary, but as an Independent, having been elected for the Alignment. He fell out with Begin over provisions of the Camp David Accords, in which he had a central role in negotiating.
He formed Telem as a centrist party (not the 2019 Moshe Ya'alon iteration), which ran seperately from Likud. The fact that National List became one the founders of Likud is no indication of David Ben-Gurion's personal shift to the right, but a sign of how a party, founded due to Ben-Gurion's sense of personal affront that he hadn't defeated his successor, Levi Eshkol, in the 1965 Mapai leadership election, was always likely to move to the right as it existed in opposition to the Labour Alignment. The National List was, in itself, a break away from the centre-left Rafi Party Ben-Gurion had originally founded in 1965, which he then left when they joined the new Labour Alignment in 1968.
Ben-Gurion left the Knesset in 1970 and one of the other of the 4 Nathonal List MKs, Meir Avizohar, left them within a couple of years, eventually joining Alignment, so, the remaining husk of the party is hardly an example of Likud representing old Israeli Labour tradition.

[rcronald]

Aug 13, 2022 9:09:41 GMT CatholicLeft said:

Aug 12, 2022 19:20:18 GMT rcronald said:

Ben Gurion’s last political party eventually merged into Likud! (and the same is true about Moshe Dayan)

Moshe Dayan dis not join Likud:he served in Begin's 1977 governemnt as Foreign Secretary, but as an Independent, having been elected for the Alignment. He fell out with Begin over provisions of the Camp David Accords, in which he had a central role in negotiating.
He formed Telem as a centrist party (not the 2019 Moshe Ya'alon iteration), which ran seperately from Likud. The fact that National List became one the founders of Likud is no indication of David Ben-Gurion's personal shift to the right, but a sign of how a party, founded due to Ben-Gurion's sense of personal affront that he hadn't defeated his successor, Levi Eshkol, in the 1965 Mapai leadership election, was always likely to move to the right as it existed in opposition to the Labour Alignment. The National List was, in itself, a break away from the centre-left Rafi Party Ben-Gurion had originally founded in 1965, which he then left when they joined the new Labour Alignment in 1968.
Ben-Gurion left the Knesset in 1970 and one of the other of the 4 Nathonal List MKs, Meir Avizohar, left them within a couple of years, eventually joining Alignment, so, the remaining husk of the party is hardly an example of Likud representing old Israeli Labour tradition.

Oh I know that,
but the fact that their parties were absorbed into Likud after they retired still makes it a fun fact!

[Georg Ebner]

Aug 12, 2022 19:20:18 GMT rcronald said:

Aug 12, 2022 18:07:20 GMT Georg Ebner said:

Some might claim, that old Labour lives only on in Likud, which is still assembling an antiLabour-coalition...

Ben Gurion’s last political party eventually merged into Likud! (and the same is true about Moshe Dayan)

Yes. Though i meant more, that the present-day coalition Likud is made of is a relict of the days, when Labour was still the gravitationCentre of Israel's partySystem.