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Post by Andrew_S on May 29, 2018 13:49:03 GMT
"Donald Tusk
Verified account @eucopresident
My appeal to all EU institutions: please respect the voters. We are there to serve them, not to lecture them. #Italy @dwnews"
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 29, 2018 13:53:14 GMT
There's a man with one eye on the next Polish election, then.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 14:06:40 GMT
It seems like he’s talking to a brick wall. I’ve never known in all the time I’ve been following politics for the EU hierarchy to actually care what the people’s of Europe think. Maybe that’ll change now the “populist” wolves are at the door so to speak but I doubt it.
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Post by coolhandluke on May 29, 2018 14:18:21 GMT
Andrea, is that the highest ever vote for the Lega in an opinion poll and also the narrowest gap yet between 5 Stars and Lega? Be interested to hear how you see this playing out with the likelihood of new elections? I haven't looked at historical opinion polling data but almost 30 must be indeed a record. Yes, I think new elections are likely at this point unless Silvio changes his mind after seeing polls. It may be tied to if Lega stay allied with FI or if they abandon them. Given a recent ruling, Berlusconi can be a candidate at next GE. Cottarelli says he would be PM only until the budget is passed (December). So they would vote on early 2019 anyway. Thanks for your thoughts. A new election seems inevitable and, whilst this poll indicates a possible record for the Lega vote, it was actually conducted between 23-28 May, so doesn't fully reflect these latest events. |
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Post by carlton43 on May 29, 2018 15:56:55 GMT
It did quite well with a weak currency. It would do so again. It would not default but depreciate and that would make imports expensive and let home industry recover and prosper. It is the only tactic to work. Italy had strength in huge number of small businesses and needs them back. For that to succeed it needs a weak currency and elements of protectionism especially from multi-nationals and chains. it needs to reverse economic modernism. So does Britain. Smaller units. Lots of them. Plenty of restrictions on the large and the foreign. Globalism only benefits the few and reduces the rest to serfdom gradually. The level of Italian debt and the lack of strength of a new lire currency means it doesn't stand a chance of getting off the ground. They'd be asking for IMF bailouts within days. I disagree. The Italian economy has many odd features but has been very productive and good at creating jobs because it is predicated on a decent life for all as the objective rather than ultimate productivity and ultimate profit; and they were prepared to protect all of that by rules and subventions to make it work. The EU and the euro have added continual strands of rules and opening up of markets that have been as damaging there as anywhere in Europe. It has knocked the guts out of systems and protections that their system wholly depended upon. And the drive to get the very large Black Economy into regularity and paying of VAT dues to the EU has had a dire effect. Back in control with protections to home farming and industry and a relaxed attitude to 'off the book' and a bit of initial borrowing and they will be fine. Italians are real grafters and natural craftsmen and business developers down to very low levels. They appreciate quality and class and know how to provide it. The EU has hamstrung them with damn fool rules and far too much regulation. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on May 29, 2018 16:30:40 GMT
That's an interesting angle Carlton, that sounds plausible, but I wonder if it is borne out in reality. It certainly is true that it's remarkable that Northern Italy has done so well (northern European wealth levels) over the last 60 years given the utter dysfunction in govt.
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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 18:52:01 GMT
Apparently Germany’s European commissioner, Günther Oettinger, said the markets would “teach the Italians to vote for the right thing”. Eyes roll......
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 19:48:06 GMT
Apparently Germany’s European commissioner, Günther Oettinger, said the markets would “teach the Italians to vote for the right thing”. Eyes roll...... Well, markets can teach salutary lessons as to the consequences of one's previous vote. On the whole letting people vote for whoever they want and then face the consequences seems a whole lot more sensible than the President of the Republic trying to teach the electorate to vote for "the right thing".... |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on May 29, 2018 19:53:29 GMT
Yes, but he probably should have at least pretended to be democratic, and said "the markets will teach the Italians the consequences of their votes" (as opposed to the "right" thing).
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 19:54:54 GMT
Apparently Germany’s European commissioner, Günther Oettinger, said the markets would “teach the Italians to vote for the right thing”. Eyes roll...... Well, markets can teach salutary lessons as to the consequences of one's previous vote. On the whole letting people vote for whoever they want and then face the consequences seems a whole lot more sensible than the President of the Republic trying to teach the electorate to vote for "the right thing".... You’re seriously defending Oettinger’s comments? |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on May 29, 2018 20:47:52 GMT
The thought process of your average Italian populist:
December 2016 – How dare anyone try to alter our perfect bella Constituzione, that's flawless and sublime and has served us so well throughout the best part of seven decades? Plus we can add getting rid of Renzi into the bargain.
March 2018 – All Italian institutions are sclerotic and corrupt and we're angry about it! They have failed us for 70 years or more now! Let's shake them up with a protest vote and show them we mean business!
May 2018 – How dare the President actually follow the Constitution? The articles he was abiding by must be stupid and need changing. Impeach Matarella!
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Post by No Offence Alan on May 29, 2018 20:55:36 GMT
I wonder if M5S will count this brief period before the next election as one of their MPs' self-imposed limit of two terms?
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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 20:57:57 GMT
LibDems are forming a human shield around the Italian President.. join now...
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mboy
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Post by mboy on May 29, 2018 21:32:01 GMT
LibDems are forming a human shield around the Italian President.. join now... Who are? |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 22:06:20 GMT
Well, markets can teach salutary lessons as to the consequences of one's previous vote. On the whole letting people vote for whoever they want and then face the consequences seems a whole lot more sensible than the President of the Republic trying to teach the electorate to vote for "the right thing".... You’re seriously defending Oettinger’s comments? I'm defending the concept that the market are the markets and if you vote for a stupid thing they'll punish you for it. Cf Corbynism. Also, that telling people they will have to live with the consequences of their own actions is perfectly OK. The idea that democracy trumps fiscal reality is as sensible as the idea that democracy trumps gravity. The point is that people should be left to make their choices and live with the consequences. If Germany/the EU/whoever think Savona would be a disaster the best way of minimising that would have been to let the Italians have him and then they'd see for themselves. Either they'd then have to sack him or live with the consequences. And if he turns out to be a success then Germany et al will have to live with those consequences. I think the Italian electorate should be treated as grown-ups. I don't think Mattarella's doing that. Oettinger is, whether or not people like it. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 22:08:23 GMT
Yes, but he probably should have at least pretended to be democratic, and said "the markets will teach the Italians the consequences of their votes" (as opposed to the "right" thing). Yes. Much better put. |
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Post by Andrew_S on May 29, 2018 23:07:43 GMT
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Post by offshore on May 29, 2018 23:30:16 GMT
To be fair to Antiochian if this was happening in Ethiopia or Kenya or Tanzania it probably would be being described as a “presidential coup” and the EU would probably be decrying it as an outrageous violation of the principles of democracy. You might want to read the twitter feed of Joseph Cotterill, the FT's man in South Africa. He has a long thread reporting on UK politics in the same way as it might be reported if the UK were an African country or emerging democracy. Start with: Why have you only told us about this now? It's a joy, but I have to get to sleep |
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Post by Andrew_S on May 30, 2018 1:27:38 GMT
"Italy's president, Sergio Mattarella is expected to decide on May 30th whether to call a snap election as early as July in an effort to resolve a rapidly deepening political and economic crisis that has sent tremors through global financial markets. The president had originally planned to put a former IMF economist, Carlo Cottarelli, at the head of a government of technocrats, tasked with steering the country back to the polls after the summer. But Mr Mattarella was reportedly considering changing tack after meeting Mr Cottarelli on May 29th amid growing evidence of support in parliament for an earlier vote. Not a single big party has declared its readiness to back Mr Cottarelli’s proposed administration in a necessary vote of confidence." www.economist.com/europe/2018/05/29/italys-bond-yields-rise-as-it-heads-for-another-election |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on May 30, 2018 1:38:36 GMT
I did some reading to find out how the Italian president gets to be president, and essentially, the president is elected by the previous Parliament (a bit more complicated), so in effect the previous government choses the current government. |
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