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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 7:31:28 GMT
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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 7:44:24 GMT
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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 7:55:19 GMT
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 7:55:25 GMT
I know it is absolutely impossible for you to look at your shopping list without assuming that it is a plot by the EU, but the EU didn't create the Italian constitution nor did it create an Italian GE result in which two incompatible parties formed a coalition and came up with the most stupid fiscal plan imaginable. It was the Italian President who decided that crashing the country out of its currency might not be a bright idea, not the EU. It will be up to the Italians to sort their own mess out. It is however true that membership of the euro does require certain fiscal disciplines. In other news: Rajoy's suppression of Catalonia was everything to do with regional/national tensions going back decades if not centuries and bugger all to do with the EU either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 7:57:32 GMT
Andrea, is that the highest ever vote for the Lega in an opinion poll and also the narrowest gap yet between 5 Stars and Lega? Be interested to hear how you see this playing out with the likelihood of new elections? I haven't looked at historical opinion polling data but almost 30 must be indeed a record. Yes, I think new elections are likely at this point unless Silvio changes his mind after seeing polls. It may be tied to if Lega stay allied with FI or if they abandon them. Given a recent ruling, Berlusconi can be a candidate at next GE. Cottarelli says he would be PM only until the budget is passed (December). So they would vote on early 2019 anyway. What influence does he have on this?
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 7:58:16 GMT
Its taken 40 years but this is the first EU-sponsored coup.... There is no other word for it. If the Brussels nomenklatura could do the same in Poland, Hungary (or the UK) they would do it today. The beast has shown its true colours. Aux armes, citoyens... I have to say, I am always game for a conspiracy theory when it comes to the EU but I am not totally sure that they have had a hand in this beyond perhaps suggesting to the president that he reject a minister, but if they did it was probably after he asked them.....which puts into play a scenario that the EU would be quite pleased with in the circumstances. Again, I don't think it matters whether the EU aree involved, and I suspect they are on the side lines, they are going to get the blame anyway. Exactly so. M5S and Lega will be happy to shout about EU interference, while the President seems happy to use the EU as an excuse for his patent loathing of the former. Not to say that the EU Commission, French and German governments wouldn't be very happy if M5S and La Lega were swallowed up by a sinkhole.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 7:59:59 GMT
If Le Pen says it is, that is prima facie evidence that it isn't. That goes for absolutely anything at all.
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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 8:04:51 GMT
If Le Pen says it is, that is prima facie evidence that it isn't. That goes for absolutely anything at all. I'd agree... just noted that she is shouting "Fire" in a burning cinema... makes it less likely that the EU's "Move along, nothing to see" will remain the discourse.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 8:05:48 GMT
The death of the centre left/left/communists and the Christian parties is all very positive. Lega without the Nord and the anti-southern rhetoric is starting to be a major player and that is very promising for Italy. La Lega are never going to be my cup tea but at least they are not the personal fiefdom of Berlusconi or Grillo or some other crook/charlatan. I can detect a set of principles behind them, whether or not I like them. I think I agree with your second sentence while disagreeing with the first! Even if La Lega were the best prospect for Italy you need a proper opposition and I don't see anyone other than the centre left/left providing it.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2018 8:07:25 GMT
If Le Pen says it is, that is prima facie evidence that it isn't. That goes for absolutely anything at all. I'd agree... just noted that she is shouting "Fire" in a burning cinema... makes it less likely that the EU's "Move along, nothing to see" will remain the discourse. Yes, I very much doubt the EU's line will remain the discourse, they're really not very good at communicating almost anything.
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middyman
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Post by middyman on May 29, 2018 8:09:51 GMT
I'd agree... just noted that she is shouting "Fire" in a burning cinema... makes it less likely that the EU's "Move along, nothing to see" will remain the discourse. Yes, I very much doubt the EU's line will remain the discourse, they're really not very good at anything Fixed that for you
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 29, 2018 8:09:55 GMT
Quite a few people seem to think it was all actually a gambit by M5S and Liga who calculated they would either get Euro withdrawal without having to get an electoral mandate, or get an election in which they would improve their standing:
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on May 29, 2018 8:18:53 GMT
If Le Pen says it is, that is prima facie evidence that it isn't. That goes for absolutely anything at all. Quite so Adam. The Daily Mail Guido Le Pen Hodges Farage UKIP Fox Always wrong whatever they say about anything. Dents your own credibility and proves how necessary each of them are.
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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 8:20:28 GMT
Quite a few people seem to think it was all actually a gambit by M5S and Liga who calculated they would either get Euro withdrawal without having to get an electoral mandate, or get an election in which they would improve their standing: Could be.... it was even problematic that there remained public support for a Euro withdrawal and yet now extreme action results in extreme reaction. Salvini has now ratcheted up the weekend's events into a discourse hinting at EU departure. It won't just be the EU that rues the day but the IMF also. It has long been seen as interventionist in many parts of the world and gained opprobrium for doing so but when its own execs or ex-execs become a flying squad of rent-a-PM/President/Finance Minister without any democratic underpinnings then the prospect of it being more generally rejected as an impartial multilateral institution (and instead seen as enforcers of elite hegemony) gets that much nearer. Mattarella could not have been more impolitic in picking an ex-IMFer, with an odious nickname to boot.
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Post by Antiochian on May 29, 2018 10:09:28 GMT
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Post by John Chanin on May 29, 2018 10:53:34 GMT
If Italians choose to trash their country, then that is their own business (although it will of course have consequences elsewhere).
However it is reasonable for it to be clear that that is what they are choosing, which seems to be the view of the Italian president. I can see his point, but he isn't really in a position to insist on it. It isn't all that uncommon for people to get something entirely different from what they were expecting, and for minorities to manipulate public opinion to achieve their own ends.
There is a morality tale very close to home here in the form of Greece.
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andrea
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Post by andrea on May 29, 2018 10:56:47 GMT
I haven't looked at historical opinion polling data but almost 30 must be indeed a record. Yes, I think new elections are likely at this point unless Silvio changes his mind after seeing polls. It may be tied to if Lega stay allied with FI or if they abandon them. Given a recent ruling, Berlusconi can be a candidate at next GE. Cottarelli says he would be PM only until the budget is passed (December). So they would vote on early 2019 anyway. What influence does he have on this? On if Forza Italia backs Cotarelli or not, he is basically up to him. However, the maths are not enough. Without Lega or 5S no government can go forward
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 12:15:29 GMT
Quite a few people seem to think it was all actually a gambit by M5S and Liga who calculated they would either get Euro withdrawal without having to get an electoral mandate, or get an election in which they would improve their standing: The theory has as much credibility as any other. It is perfectly conceivable that this was the scenario
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mboy
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Post by mboy on May 29, 2018 12:41:21 GMT
Rajoy: Ha ha! No one can inflame a delicate situation more than I can!
Mattarella: Hold my beer...
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 29, 2018 13:18:04 GMT
I've been reading up on Savona today. I'm at a loss as to how you'd justify this. Is he the best man for the job? No idea. Is he totally unacceptable? No. If he was competent and sensible enough to be a minister before, why not now? Madness.
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