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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 18, 2018 14:44:45 GMT
They're basically like the kind of Peasants party that you used to get in various East European countries to get?  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 14:49:40 GMT
Somewhat to my surprise, I have been told that FF are the Lib Dems' Irish partners in ALDE in the European parliament, and is also a member of Liberal International, while FG affiliate to EPP, which has no British affiliate since the Tories left, and is a member of Christian Democrat International. The differences between the parties on socio-economic lines have always been a bit of a mystery to me, and I suspect to most people this side of the Irish Sea, but is it really the case that FF are more "liberal" than FG? Historically, FG always seemed to find it easier to form coalition governments with parties to the left, such as Labour or the PDs. Please help, anyone who has a greater insight than me. Fianna Fail are a populist party particularly economically. They have a strong working class electorate. Think Peronism - a catch all centre party with populist economic approaches. Ask ALDE why they are there...I don't think they belong to any other natural grouping Or the SNP, at least in terms of how they actually run Scotland. Who, after all, used to sit with the Gaullists in the European Parliament (alongside Fianna Fáil and Mogens Glistrup's radical anti-tax outfit that eventually morphed into the Danish People's Party) before linking up with the French PRG and then later the Greens... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 15:45:16 GMT
Fianna Fail are a populist party particularly economically. They have a strong working class electorate. Think Peronism - a catch all centre party with populist economic approaches. Ask ALDE why they are there...I don't think they belong to any other natural grouping Or the SNP, at least in terms of how they actually run Scotland. Who, after all, used to sit with the Gaullists in the European Parliament (alongside Fianna Fáil and Mogens Glistrup's radical anti-tax outfit that eventually morphed into the Danish People's Party) before linking up with the French PRG and then later the Greens... I'll miss the EP group formations. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 15:47:21 GMT
So SF are not SF but FF & FG were
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jan 18, 2018 18:00:21 GMT
Btw, the only remote chance SF have of even coming to losing would be if some (Catholic) "Local man for Local people" independent ran - and it would have to be a very, very good campaign. Not impossible - this is Ireland, and Ireland in a way Belfast isn't - but not very likely to put it mildly. And it's also Ireland the way Dublin isn't, being part of the United Kingdom with some 40-50% of West Tyrone voters broadly supporting the continuation of that union. Quite frankly, Monaghan or Donegal are Ireland in a way Dublin isn't (Dublin is a Colonial Edinburgh that got lost, as if the Norman-izing of Scotland only happened in the 17th and 18th Centuries) but Monaghan and Donegal's politics share a quality with Tyrone that they don't share with Belfast (or Dublin). |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jan 18, 2018 18:20:16 GMT
The difference is simple: Fine Gael is a Middle Class Party that often allied with (the very, very pale pink) left against the machine populists and peasants of Fianna Fail.
But the machines are on life support now and Fianna Fail's remaining support profile looks a lot like a classic European right-wing populist party, except they have no problem with immigrants, at least no more so than the other parties.
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Post by greenhert on Jan 18, 2018 18:25:37 GMT
They're basically like the kind of Peasants party that you used to get in various East European countries A Peasants' Party still exists in Poland (Polish People's Party) although they now only have a rump of support left. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Jan 18, 2018 19:13:04 GMT
They're basically like the kind of Peasants party that you used to get in various East European countries Pretty analogous to traditional Nordic agrarian parties too though with ingrained added urban appeal. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Jan 18, 2018 19:19:05 GMT
So SF are not SF but FF & FG were Sinn Fein are Provisional Sinn Fein, the original Sinn Fein folded into the Labour Party (the Irish one). Now reminded of this I'll be referring to 'Sinn Fein' by their proper title from now on... |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Jan 18, 2018 22:43:03 GMT
So SF are not SF but FF & FG were Sinn Fein are Provisional Sinn Fein, the original Sinn Fein folded into the Labour Party (the Irish one). Now reminded of this I'll be referring to 'Sinn Fein' by their proper title from now on... Sinn Fein surely the Workers Party - Labour is the political wing of the Irish Trade Union Congress and has had a unique history seperate from SF. The failure of Corbyn and McDonnell to align with the Workers Party does indicate they know little about the history of the working class in that country. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jan 18, 2018 23:03:01 GMT
Sinn Fein are Provisional Sinn Fein, the original Sinn Fein folded into the Labour Party (the Irish one). Now reminded of this I'll be referring to 'Sinn Fein' by their proper title from now on... Sinn Fein surely the Workers Party - Labour is the political wing of the Irish Trade Union Congress and has had a unique history seperate from SF. The failure of Corbyn and McDonnell to align with the Workers Party does indicate they know little about the history of the working class in that country. is thinking of those who split from the Workers' Party in 1992, led by Prionsias De Rossa, who formed the Democratic Left. This, in 1992, folded into the Labour Party. So Labour does have some Sinn Fein history. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Jan 18, 2018 23:20:26 GMT
Somewhat to my surprise, I have been told that FF are the Lib Dems' Irish partners in ALDE in the European parliament, and is also a member of Liberal International, while FG affiliate to EPP, which has no British affiliate since the Tories left, and is a member of Christian Democrat International. The differences between the parties on socio-economic lines have always been a bit of a mystery to me, and I suspect to most people this side of the Irish Sea, but is it really the case that FF are more "liberal" than FG? Historically, FG always seemed to find it easier to form coalition governments with parties to the left, such as Labour or the PDs. Please help, anyone who has a greater insight than me. Fianna Fail are a populist party particularly economically. They have a strong working class electorate. Think Peronism - a catch all centre party with populist economic approaches. Ask ALDE why they are there...I don't think they belong to any other natural grouping Fine Gael have a more middle class electorate. This is reflected in their approach. Under Garret Fitzgerald they moved more towards a social democratic outlook but that didn't sustain. Probably best understood by their affiliation to the EPP and their politics reflect that slightly right of centre approach. FF in the European Parliament is a complicated history. When Ireland entered the EEC back in 1973 the parties looked to join with existing groupings. Fine Gael managed to beat Fianna Fáil to get into what was then the Christian Democrat group (legend has it literally so with a taxi race from the airport) which became the EPP in 1976. Existing members of Euro groupings are given a veto on national rivals joining and Fine Gael have wielded this ever since. Fianna Fáil then spent the next 36 years basically a hostage to the internal politics of the French, Italian and then Polish right. They initially joined with the French Gaullists (who had been blocked from the Christian Democrats by domestic rivals, then sat with the Liberals until about the Empty Chair Crisis when they then sat on their own) to form what was basically an alternative national conservative grouping of parties whose main feature was having a domestic rival in the EPP rather than a coherent set of joint values. Over the years various other parties joined - the SNP sat for ten years, Forza Italia joined in the mid 1990s and there were other bits and pieces. In the late 1990s first Forza Italia and then the Gaullists patched up domestic rivalries and got into the EPP. Fianna Fáil then joined with other bits and pieces, most notably the Polish Law & Justice from 2004, but the grouping was increasingly less comfortable. They tried to join the Liberals but the Progressive Democrats wielded the veto there. The Euro groupings are also now more important for Eurojobs and any FFer with Euroambitions frankly had to either join another party or forget them. So as soon as the PDs dissolve FF applied to join the Liberals. At the time some informed commentators said they were better than the Bulgarian monarchists. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 18, 2018 23:46:34 GMT
Just to clarify that the Sinn Fein Funds Case (a quite hilarious incident) sits behind this.
Basically, SF (the original) was moribund and its assets belonged to a woman called Jenny Power (I think) and some trustees. Her and her son offered the assets to Dev to use for veterans of the civil war. SF kicked off, and the Irish High Court pointed out that they couldn't tell the trustees how to spend the cash as the party hadn't owned the cash for years, if ever.
Modern SF is about the 5th version!
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Post by timrollpickering on Jan 19, 2018 11:30:14 GMT
Just to clarify that the Sinn Fein Funds Case (a quite hilarious incident) sits behind this. Basically, SF (the original) was moribund and its assets belonged to a woman called Jenny Power (I think) and some trustees. Her and her son offered the assets to Dev to use for veterans of the civil war. SF kicked off, and the Irish High Court pointed out that they couldn't tell the trustees how to spend the cash as the party hadn't owned the cash for years, if ever. Modern SF is about the 5th version! The case actually ruled that the Sinn Féin organisation in the 1940s was not the legal continuity of the old Sinn Féin that had "melted away" in 1922 - the anti Treaty rump meetings were ruled to have not followed the rules as existing up to 1922. (I think it did, though, confirm continuity between the anti-Treaty body of 1923 and the anti-de Valera rump that remained after 1926.) Power was one of two honorary treasurers in 1922. The funds fell into limbo when the standing committee/office board resolved no further expenditure without its explicit approval, then never met again (the party as a whole was going into suspense amidst the split with only a handful of actions to maintain nominal unity). Power and Duggan subsequently lodged the funds in a court trust; after both had died Power's son tried to resolve the matter. Sinn Féin went through some massive mental hurdles to even bring the case as they didn't recognise the legitimacy of the southern state at all (and subsequently resolved against using the courts again). It rapidly became clear that most of the funds would be squandered on legal proceedings and a law was passed to take control of the funds; however the courts ruled the legislation unconstitutional on both separation of powers and private property grounds. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Jan 19, 2018 11:41:02 GMT
So the funds were just "resting"
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Jan 19, 2018 11:54:03 GMT
I read about this a few months ago, as of 1959 the remaining money was lying unclaimed. Anyone know what happened to it or is it still gathering interest in a bank account somewhere?
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johnloony
Conservative
Posts: 24,536
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Post by johnloony on Jan 19, 2018 12:18:34 GMT
I read about this a few months ago, as of 1959 the remaining money was lying unclaimed. Anyone know what happened to it or is it still gathering interest in a bank account somewhere? Perhaps you could liven up an otherwise (relatively) dull by-election campaign by standing as a candidate on the issue of having this question investigated and resolved. Haha |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 17:09:43 GMT
I read about this a few months ago, as of 1959 the remaining money was lying unclaimed. Anyone know what happened to it or is it still gathering interest in a bank account somewhere? Perhaps you could liven up an otherwise (relatively) dull by-election campaign by standing as a candidate on the issue of having this question investigated and resolved. Haha The temptation to donate something towards the deposit is real. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 20, 2018 17:14:51 GMT
The UUP have proposed that a cross-community victims candidate stand here in opposition to Sinn Féin, which the Alliance Party are apparently considering but the DUP and SDLP are playing down. How pathetic. Some people just love being permanent victims.... |
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 20, 2018 18:00:03 GMT
How pathetic. Some people just love being permanent victims.... Isn't that normally the point of being a victim? Better the victims than the perpetrators, which so happens to be Sinn Fein in this case. Some people will never move on. What was the point of the peace process? I think some of you hoped Sinn Fein would just disappear. It's in the past and encouragement is needed to keep it there. |
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