Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 9:38:56 GMT
I'm not sure I agree. Theres been a unionist maj in NI up until now since forever. If the DUP and UUP formed the gov at every election not only would it alienate nationalists but its not hugely democratic either
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 18, 2018 10:00:40 GMT
I'm not sure I agree. Theres been a unionist maj in NI up until now since forever. If the DUP and UUP formed the gov at every election not only would it alienate nationalists but its not hugely democratic either Exactly. If unionists could be trusted with exercising power responsibly then this might be an option - but they can't. Change isn't likely to happen overnight but SF have changed far more than the DUP whose manipulation and intransigence has assisted SF - understandably the non-unionist population which has increased in number do not feel they will benefit from division. Abstentionism does bring it's own problems but moving away from it would be a step too far given that SF remain committed to an all- Ireland approach. It may change in the future but SF will have to be certain that they would benefit from it enough to move away from a very longstanding policy. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Jan 18, 2018 11:35:10 GMT
Wasnt Fine Gael and Fianna Fail bourne of SF Sort of. "Sinn Féin" has a complicated history with multiple splits and on several occasions it was the minority who carried on with the name, even when it was disputed which faction was the official continuation. Fine Gael are basically the pro Treaty followers of Michael Collins who subsequently combined with the heirs to the remains of the old Home Rule party, some farmers and a veterans' body that provided protection. Collins's supporters broke off in 1922/3 and merged with the others in 1933 to form Fine Gael. Fianna Fáil are the anti Treaty followers of Éamon de Valera who retained the "Sinn Féin" name in 1922, but then in 1926 split over moving away from abstentionism. De Valera broke with SF and took most of the support into the new party, leaving a rump struggling on. Sinn Féin split again in 1969/70, along with the IRA, over ditching abstentionism and pursuing a Marxist approach. The "Officials" (nicknamed "Stickies") followed this strategy and subsequently renamed themselves the Workers' Party (and later split with a majority breakaway called Democratic Left that subsequently merged into the south's Labour Party and dominated it). The "Provisionals" are the Sinn Féin you mainly hear about today. Initially they followed traditional abstentionialism and physical force nationalism but over time to a large extent they have ultimately wound up following a similar course to the Stickies albeit a generation later. Adams has been incredibly successful at shifting the Republican movement through slaughtering several sacred cows with only very small splinters rather than the huge bitter splits of previous generations. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Jan 18, 2018 11:40:09 GMT
Also, I would had the local DUP assemblyman and candidate last year is a man who promotes creationnism and went in a school to say than "homosexuality is an abomination". You really want someone like that in Parliament? Should try Holyrood, men hunted dinosaurs |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 18, 2018 11:41:46 GMT
Then there's when the Provisionals split in 1986 over taking seats in the Dáil, and those opposed formed 'Republican Sinn Féin'. Plus I think some of the dissidents who opposed the ceasefire had nominal political wings.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Jan 18, 2018 11:47:15 GMT
Wasnt Fine Gael and Fianna Fail bourne of SF Fine Gael are basically the pro Treaty followers of Michael Collins who subsequently combined with the heirs to the remains of the old Home Rule party, some farmers and a veterans' body that provided protection. Collins's supporters broke off in 1922/3 and merged with the others in 1933 to form Fine Gael. Fianna Fáil are the anti Treaty followers of Éamon de Valera who retained the "Sinn Féin" name in 1922, but then in 1926 split over moving away from abstentionism. De Valera broke with SF and took most of the support into the new party, leaving a rump struggling on. Somewhat to my surprise, I have been told that FF are the Lib Dems' Irish partners in ALDE in the European parliament, and is also a member of Liberal International, while FG affiliate to EPP, which has no British affiliate since the Tories left, and is a member of Christian Democrat International. The differences between the parties on socio-economic lines have always been a bit of a mystery to me, and I suspect to most people this side of the Irish Sea, but is it really the case that FF are more "liberal" than FG? Historically, FG always seemed to find it easier to form coalition governments with parties to the left, such as Labour or the PDs. Please help, anyone who has a greater insight than me. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Jan 18, 2018 11:53:02 GMT
Bernadette McAlisky has of course a different take on NI and the peace process.
It is smoke and mirrors funded by so much EU money "The decent unemployed couldn’t cross the road for being offered work!”
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 11:58:38 GMT
Depends on what you mean. In terms of the numbers the unionists would have been able to govern NI in every election up until the last election without a problem. In reality the peace process would have been alot harder in NI if NI was just governed by unionists or by nationalists rather than by both.
On democracy imo if one party or coalition governs a country indefinitely that's not democracy. Roy Jenkins used to say that you need a change in government every fewvyears just to have a healthy democracy
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jan 18, 2018 11:59:16 GMT
Bernadette McAlisky has of course a different take on NI and the peace process. It is smoke and mirrors funded by so much EU money "The decent unemployed couldn’t cross the road for being offered work!” God bless her  |
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Post by yellowperil on Jan 18, 2018 12:13:14 GMT
Depends on what you mean. In terms of the numbers the unionists would have been able to govern NI in every election up until the last election without a problem. In reality the peace process would have been alot harder in NI if NI was just governed by unionists or by nationalists rather than by both. On democracy imo if one party or coalition governs a country indefinitely that's not democracy. Roy Jenkins used to say that you need a change in government every fewvyears just to have a healthy democracy Ah a Labour supporter quoting Roy -that's what I like to hear. Quite right on this, certainly - democracy is only really effective if there is genuine choice. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 12:57:34 GMT
I read his autobiography. Labour's best Home Sec imo
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 18, 2018 12:58:42 GMT
Fine Gael are basically the pro Treaty followers of Michael Collins who subsequently combined with the heirs to the remains of the old Home Rule party, some farmers and a veterans' body that provided protection. Collins's supporters broke off in 1922/3 and merged with the others in 1933 to form Fine Gael. Fianna Fáil are the anti Treaty followers of Éamon de Valera who retained the "Sinn Féin" name in 1922, but then in 1926 split over moving away from abstentionism. De Valera broke with SF and took most of the support into the new party, leaving a rump struggling on. Somewhat to my surprise, I have been told that FF are the Lib Dems' Irish partners in ALDE in the European parliament, and is also a member of Liberal International, while FG affiliate to EPP, which has no British affiliate since the Tories left, and is a member of Christian Democrat International. The differences between the parties on socio-economic lines have always been a bit of a mystery to me, and I suspect to most people this side of the Irish Sea, but is it really the case that FF are more "liberal" than FG? Historically, FG always seemed to find it easier to form coalition governments with parties to the left, such as Labour or the PDs. Please help, anyone who has a greater insight than me. Fianna Fail are a populist party particularly economically. They have a strong working class electorate. Think Peronism - a catch all centre party with populist economic approaches. Ask ALDE why they are there...I don't think they belong to any other natural grouping Fine Gael have a more middle class electorate. This is reflected in their approach. Under Garret Fitzgerald they moved more towards a social democratic outlook but that didn't sustain. Probably best understood by their affiliation to the EPP and their politics reflect that slightly right of centre approach. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 18, 2018 13:00:06 GMT
I read his autobiography. Labour's best Home Sec imo Absolutely. On those issues he had all the correct instincts way before his time. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 13:04:30 GMT
Perhaps I'm being naive but FF appear to me as an alternative to voters in Ireland but are quite close to Fine Gael ideologically. They are now standing in NI too apparently
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 18, 2018 13:14:45 GMT
Fianna Fáil has talked for years about standing in Northern Ireland but never really gone ahead with it.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jan 18, 2018 13:17:25 GMT
They're basically like the kind of Peasants party that you used to get in various East European countries
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Jan 18, 2018 13:30:33 GMT
A whipped vote on what, exactly?
Seriously guys, engage with the real world, thank you.
He could try to change the Labour party’s position on Northern Irish ones from one of Neutrality to one favourable to Sinn Fein. That would be a Labour conference or policy forum* matter, surely, not down to a parliamentary vote whipped or otherwise? *= is that still a thing? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 18, 2018 14:24:16 GMT
They sound like reactionaries. Not always left or right Didnt SF gain an SDLP seat Interestingly, the SDLP was a socialist foundation, with lots of middle-class urban support. Sinn Fein were the catch-all Republicans with rural conservative support. Indeed, weren't what is now RSF regarded as the actual socialists in the setup? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 18, 2018 14:35:40 GMT
Wasnt Fine Gael and Fianna Fail bourne of SF They were born out of a previous organisation of that name. The modern Sinn Fein was legally ruled to not be the same. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 18, 2018 14:37:54 GMT
I read his autobiography. Labour's best Home Sec imo I have in my possession "Roy Jenkins: A Retrospective", essays collated by Andrew Adonis. Worth a read if still in print. I don't share many of his politics but he was a fascinating bloke. And the asparagus tips story will live on forever. Even more than green Chartreuse. |
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