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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 16, 2018 17:34:59 GMT
Shinner MPs don't get any salary from public funds (the party does pay them). They are eligible for some of the office and staffing allowances, because they do employ staff and have offices in Parliament and in their constituencies.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 16, 2018 17:36:37 GMT
The other issue is the SDLPs views on abortion, etc. Tbf Labour members have stood for council and assembly as Independents. SF are firmly in favour of legalising abortion, apart from when they aren't. It depends on who is listening. And of course they abstained on an abortion bill brought by the Socialist Party! |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 16, 2018 17:49:05 GMT
I disagree that he’s childish, I think he knows what he’s doing. He must, he’s backed every anti western terrorist, government and organisation since about 1968. [snip] Probably belongs on another thread, but: well, we can only speculate. IMO (I imagine you'd agree) to take the consistent antiwar, pro-disarmanent line he does while simultaneously palling up to so many people engaged in wars (but only if they are opposed to the West) is morally totally inconsistent. So far, we agree, I think. Either he is totally hypocritical or he is foolish/kidding himself. Based on my experience of others who do similar, I've much more often found it is the latter: people with a Goodies v Baddies view of the world, for whom the western establishment are Baddies and ergo absolutely everyone who opposes them must be Goodies. Nationalists, Islamists, Communists, Narco-criminals, you name it: all become honorary socialists who would be decent members of the Labour Party if only if it wasn't for the dreadful oppression of the frightful Baddies (probably abetted by the US and/or UK) which has forced them to reach for the gun as a last resort. Just be nice to them and they'll be down the allotment and singing Jerusalem like a shot. On this world view, the wickedness of The West and its ruling class (sic) is all important, analysis if what the other lot are up to is not extensive. My problem with JC is not that I think he's a scumbag, I'd probably get on with quite well with him over a cup of tea, but I think his judgement is seriously flawed and simplistic. Exhibit B: his call for triggering Art 50 ASAP the morning after the referendum, which whatever your views on Brexit betrayed a complete lack of thought about the scale of the matter. |
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Post by johnloony on Jan 16, 2018 18:43:12 GMT
How did McElduff resign? Did he do the normal method of writing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, asking to be appointed to the Chiltern Hundreds, or did he use the Sinn Fein method of writing to the Speaker to say that he had "resigned"? Barry McElduff remains MP for West Tyrone at the time of writing, so the question does not arise. I had a feeling that that might have been the answer to my question, although I didn't specify that option  |
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Post by curiousliberal on Jan 16, 2018 18:52:46 GMT
I disagree that he’s childish, I think he knows what he’s doing. He must, he’s backed every anti western terrorist, government and organisation since about 1968. [snip] Either he is totally hypocritical or he is foolish/kidding himself. Based on my experience of others who do similar, I've much more often found it is the latter: people with a Goodies v Baddies view of the world, for whom the western establishment are Baddies and ergo absolutely everyone who opposes them must be Goodies. Nationalists, Islamists, Communists, Narco-criminals, you name it: all become honorary socialists who would be decent members of the Labour Party if only if it wasn't for the dreadful oppression of the frightful Baddies (probably abetted by the US and/or UK) which has forced them to reach for the gun as a last resort. Just be nice to them and they'll be down the allotment and singing Jerusalem like a shot. On this world view, the wickedness of The West and its ruling class (sic) is all important, analysis if what the other lot are up to is not extensive.This viewpoint becomes even more apparent if you engage in online discourse on an 'ordinary' international politics forum. Corbyn seems much like one of those edgy Resistance Axis fanboys that spawn and thrive there, but one who simply never grew up. They live by the mantra: 'If it opposes the West, it's good. If it doesn't, it's bad. If it's so awful we can't reconcile it with the previous clauses (e.g. IS), then it must be a tool of the West'. It makes for amusing conspiracy theories, but not good leadership of a serious political party. Tack 'and Israel' onto the list of primary Western antagonists and you've pretty much got their ideology nailed down to a tee. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 19:19:49 GMT
Barry McElduff reported to have resigned* in the fallout from his Kingsmill stunt. * He cannot resign in form so will have to apply to be Crown Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds. De Facto he resigned, if others want to go through the pointless motions of appointing him to an "office of profit" under the Crown good luck because they are wasting their time. As I said before, abolish this anachronism. The Speaker should be the one informed of a members resignation - orally or in writing. It should say ten words "I tender my resignation of my seat with immediate effect". |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 19:22:33 GMT
How did McElduff resign? Did he do the normal method of writing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, asking to be appointed to the Chiltern Hundreds, or did he use the Sinn Fein method of writing to the Speaker to say that he had "resigned"? Given they don't formally take their seats that's an interesting point True, but to all intents and purposes they have been long recognised as the elected members, even if for matters of principle they will not sit in the chamber. |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jan 16, 2018 20:01:13 GMT
Barry McElduff reported to have resigned* in the fallout from his Kingsmill stunt. * He cannot resign in form so will have to apply to be Crown Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds. De Facto he resigned, if others want to go through the pointless motions of appointing him to an "office of profit" under the Crown good luck because they are wasting their time. As I said before, abolish this anachronism. The Speaker should be the one informed of a members resignation - orally or in writing. It should say ten words "I tender my resignation of my seat with immediate effect". Generally agree, other than it must be in writing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 20:38:42 GMT
Perhaps I should vote for the socialist party in nothern ireland
I don't drink tea i think corbyn drinks grape juice bubbly which i dont like either. I must say of the things corbyn has done and said while leader the A50 thing was one I was less bothered by but that's just me
I've never heard of this edgy axis resistance
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Post by uhurasmazda on Jan 16, 2018 21:21:02 GMT
Tbf if Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness could work together its proof that despite the rhetoric we have moved beyond the troubles. If only the current leadership could take heed Immensely true up to a point, but not beyond. Yes, Paisley and McGuinness (of all people) worked together, yes the risk of major terrorism (still less the near civil war scenario of the mid-70s) has receded; but we are supposed to be in a peace process and it seems to me to have rather stalled. I had hoped that once people did not fear that the other side's terrorists were coming to kill them, political support for their own terrorists would ebb away, but this has not really happened. Nor has the basic political divide shifted towards "normal" politics, not even to the extent of there being "Loyalist" Socialists or "Republican" Conservatives and vice versa. Upthread Merseymike said he'd vote SF because they have a socialist wing and I can understand his dilemma - as a socialist he couldn't vote DUP or UUP (or even APNI; maybe GPNI at a pinch) and he judges the SDLP to be out of the race, so SF it is. Yet he's on record as having no time for nationalism. There's no progress in weaning NI politics away from an argument about national identity, though there's been massive progress in reaching point where (almost) no-one feels the need to kill people over it. I would imagine that True Socialists in Norn would tend to waste their votes on People Before Profit, unless they were the sort of electoralist scum who would settle for teh ev0l Labour Party. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 16, 2018 21:52:06 GMT
Perhaps I should vote for the socialist party in nothern ireland I don't drink tea i think corbyn drinks grape juice bubbly which i dont like either. I must say of the things corbyn has done and said while leader the A50 thing was one I was less bothered by but that's just me I've never heard of this edgy axis resistance Not caring about A50 is perfectly OK, as is being in favour of it or against it. Thinking that the UK was in a state to leave the EU within two years of June 2016 (or "as soon as possible" after) was stupid. Being a candidate for PM of this country and making stupid decisions is not OK. That's the judgement issue. As with the IRA stuff, it is not the substantive issue I'm calling into question, I am saying that I personally don't trust his ability to make high pressured decisions in the face of unexpected events, or judgements on technically complex policy matters, and get them right. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jan 16, 2018 22:03:18 GMT
Immensely true up to a point, but not beyond. Yes, Paisley and McGuinness (of all people) worked together, yes the risk of major terrorism (still less the near civil war scenario of the mid-70s) has receded; but we are supposed to be in a peace process and it seems to me to have rather stalled. I had hoped that once people did not fear that the other side's terrorists were coming to kill them, political support for their own terrorists would ebb away, but this has not really happened. Nor has the basic political divide shifted towards "normal" politics, not even to the extent of there being "Loyalist" Socialists or "Republican" Conservatives and vice versa. Upthread Merseymike said he'd vote SF because they have a socialist wing and I can understand his dilemma - as a socialist he couldn't vote DUP or UUP (or even APNI; maybe GPNI at a pinch) and he judges the SDLP to be out of the race, so SF it is. Yet he's on record as having no time for nationalism. There's no progress in weaning NI politics away from an argument about national identity, though there's been massive progress in reaching point where (almost) no-one feels the need to kill people over it. I would imagine that True Socialists in Norn would tend to waste their votes on People Before Profit, unless they were the sort of electoralist scum who would settle for teh ev0l Labour Party. NI has always had a pretty decent trade union movement, which has tended to draw people in precisely because standard electoral politics is an unending bonfire of idiocy. |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jan 16, 2018 23:01:21 GMT
I would imagine that True Socialists in Norn would tend to waste their votes on People Before Profit, unless they were the sort of electoralist scum who would settle for teh ev0l Labour Party. NI has always had a pretty decent trade union movement, which has tended to draw people in precisely because standard electoral politics is an unending bonfire of idiocy. The same is true in the Republic of Ireland, although here whenever the heads of the Trade Union movement get into electoral or (more commonly) party politics they very much contribute to that bonfire. |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jan 16, 2018 23:03:30 GMT
Btw, the only remote chance SF have of even coming to losing would be if some (Catholic) "Local man for Local people" independent ran - and it would have to be a very, very good campaign. Not impossible - this is Ireland, and Ireland in a way Belfast isn't - but not very likely to put it mildly.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 17, 2018 0:05:59 GMT
The other issue is the SDLPs views on abortion, etc. Tbf Labour members have stood for council and assembly as Independents. SF are firmly in favour of legalising abortion, apart from when they aren't. It depends on who is listening. And of course they abstained on an abortion bill brought by the Socialist Party! They have a mix of views which I guess isn't surprising for a party made up of Roman Catholics in the main. However Michelle O'Neill their current leader in the north is pro choice |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jan 17, 2018 0:18:14 GMT
I find extremely troubling most posters on the right are very eager to denounce the violence from IRA past, but turn a blind eye at the violence from DUP/loyalist past.
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Post by maxque on Jan 17, 2018 7:37:57 GMT
Also, I would had the local DUP assemblyman and candidate last year is a man who promotes creationnism and went in a school to say than "homosexuality is an abomination".
You really want someone like that in Parliament?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 17, 2018 8:18:25 GMT
Also, I would had the local DUP assemblyman and candidate last year is a man who promotes creationnism and went in a school to say than "homosexuality is an abomination". You really want someone like that in Parliament? You seem to think that most people here consider the Day Yoi Pay to be a normal, sensible party. This surprises me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 8:51:50 GMT
I find extremely troubling most posters on the right are very eager to denounce the violence from IRA past, but turn a blind eye at the violence from DUP/loyalist past. We really really don’t like the DUP. And they don’t like us. We just feel it’s worth putting up with each other to stop Labour. I’d vote UUP any day of the week everything being equal as would the vast majority of us. Maybe DUP to stop the Shinners or SDLP, but through gritted teeth. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 17, 2018 9:25:32 GMT
I find extremely troubling most posters on the right are very eager to denounce the violence from IRA past, but turn a blind eye at the violence from DUP/loyalist past. We really really don’t like the DUP. And they don’t like us. We just feel it’s worth putting up with each other to stop Labour. I’d vote UUP any day of the week everything being equal as would the vast majority of us. Maybe DUP to stop the Shinners or SDLP, but through gritted teeth. I'd have little problem voting for the SDLP if needed. A little too left for my taste admittedly but committed to democracy in a way that SF weren't/aren't. |
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