J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,774 
|
Post by J.G.Harston on Mar 19, 2018 2:11:13 GMT
It says: PUTIN
Vladimir
Vladimirovich | Birth year 1952; Place of birth - City of Moscow; President of the Russian Federation; self-nomination. |
It looks like space for some free text from the candidate (with a minimum of birth year and place). Rather than state a manifesto Putin has just put the minimum required. Like in the first Lords' elections some candidate put in their electorate statement "Duty". |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,907
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Mar 19, 2018 8:10:57 GMT
Because he is not only barking but fanatically hostile to Russia. So I don't believe him, basically To be clear, do you think this “election” was rigged? I don't know. And in truth neither do you. You cannot 'Know'! Is it possible? Certainly. Probable? Possibly. But do you seriously think he would have lost this even if it was conducted to high standards by the Electoral Reform Society? That is the real question. Was it rigged to achieve the election of an unpopular man who could not otherwise have won at all? Surely the answer to that is 'No'. |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,907
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Mar 19, 2018 8:24:41 GMT
Sigh....you asked a question and I answered it. Given the current hysteria I wouldn't believe much I'm hearing on either side. And as for employers telling employees how to vote....this was absolutely commonplace in rural areas here until relatively recently. So yes I think Putin got the most votes and would have done even if the banned candidate had stood. I never said he wouldn’t win, I most certainly do not believe it would be 76% though. I have been following Russia and Russian politics for about 7 years now and I believe that if Navalny had stood and if it was a fair election it would have went to a second round and Navalny would have run him close. That’s my personal opinion. My final thought, I think it’s telling about the state of our society that your answer was what it was. Even blatant vote rigging, with videos and you’re still equivocal 😕 David. Just calm down. It isn't worth all that fuss. Putin is quite popular and he would have won under any circumstances. That is all that matters really isn't it? This is not Surrey in England. It is the Rus of the Czars and of the Soviets. It is slowly adjusting to 'doing different' but it has not utterly transformed established practices of 'adjustment' and 'enhancement'. Should it be different? Of course. It may well improve but it won't if we keep poking it with sticks, shouting at it and laughing at it and making up stories and glorying in every bit of bad news. |
|
|
|
Post by yellowperil on Mar 19, 2018 8:43:13 GMT
It’s interesting how low the turnout seems to be in more Western leaning areas like Moscow, St Petersburg, Karelia, Kaliningrad etc. Why is St Petersburg referred to as Leningrad? Seems a little odd! And one might have thought it would have been a Putin stronghold? Incidentally, I knew Leningrad quite well in the Gorbachev era (we celebrated our Silver Wedding there) and visited St Petersburg in the Putin era a few years ago now- the former was incomparably nicer than the latter. |
|
|
|
Post by mrpastelito on Mar 19, 2018 8:49:20 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 8:53:41 GMT
It’s interesting how low the turnout seems to be in more Western leaning areas like Moscow, St Petersburg, Karelia, Kaliningrad etc. Why is St Petersburg referred to as Leningrad? Seems a little odd! And one might have thought it would have been a Putin stronghold? Incidentally, I knew Leningrad quite well in the Gorbachev era (we celebrated our Silver Wedding there) and visited St Petersburg in the Putin era a few years ago now- the former was incomparably nicer than the latter. St. Petersburg has always been more liberal than the rest of Russia in many respects and indeed it takes pride in this. As for being referred to as Leningrad, what are you referring to? In the graphic on Ria Novisti’s website it’s referred to as “Санкт-Петербу́рг“ which is St Petersburg. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 9:02:08 GMT
I never said he wouldn’t win, I most certainly do not believe it would be 76% though. I have been following Russia and Russian politics for about 7 years now and I believe that if Navalny had stood and if it was a fair election it would have went to a second round and Navalny would have run him close. That’s my personal opinion. My final thought, I think it’s telling about the state of our society that your answer was what it was. Even blatant vote rigging, with videos and you’re still equivocal 😕 David. Just calm down. It isn't worth all that fuss. Putin is quite popular and he would have won under any circumstances. That is all that matters really isn't it? This is not Surrey in England. It is the Rus of the Czars and of the Soviets. It is slowly adjusting to 'doing different' but it has not utterly transformed established practices of 'adjustment' and 'enhancement'. Should it be different? Of course. It may well improve but it won't if we keep poking it with sticks, shouting at it and laughing at it and making up stories and glorying in every bit of bad news. Calm down about what? I’m quite calm and placid I can assure you😂 Look Carlton, I’m a believer in democracy and so no, I don’t think it’s all that matters. I accept that Russia isn’t a liberal democracy, indeed I previously, in the Anglo-Russian relations thread, said I’m sceptical it can ever be so. That doesn’t mean however that I’m not going to point out vote rigging, kleptocracy, homicidal homophobia and all the other atrocities and crimes that Putinism is responsible for. As for poking Russia with sticks, I’m not in favour of that. I love Russia and the Russian people, indeed I’m lucky enough to have met and count as friends many wonderful Russians. I don’t attack Russia because I hate it and I don’t make up stories about it either. Russia is a wonderful country and it deserves better than Putin. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 19, 2018 9:02:54 GMT
The city is St Petersburg but the oblast around it remains known as Leningrad Oblast.
|
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 19, 2018 9:04:34 GMT
Putin is of course extremely popular. The vote-rigging has as its purpose the disguising of apathy, in the hope of giving oneself greater legitimacy. When you're the only show in town, with all credible rivals banned and every other rival a joke, low turnout is what will cause you embarrassment.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 9:05:09 GMT
No, I can’t stand Alexei Navalny. Putin, Navalny, Zhirinovsky etc. they’re all antisemitic, homophobic, racist etc.. Russian politics is like that, have you ever seen Russian state tv? I don’t excuse it and I don’t like it, in fact I hate it, but the only way those attitudes will change is with democracy. |
|
Merseymike
Independent
Posts: 40,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Merseymike on Mar 19, 2018 9:13:19 GMT
No, I can’t stand Alexei Navalny. Putin, Navalny, Zhirinovsky etc. they’re all antisemitic, homophobic, racist etc.. Russian politics is like that, have you ever seen Russian state tv? I don’t excuse it and I don’t like it, in fact I hate it, but the only way those attitudes will change is with democracy. Which the Russians are very sceptical about - and since when has it been a panacea anyway? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 9:16:37 GMT
No, I can’t stand Alexei Navalny. Putin, Navalny, Zhirinovsky etc. they’re all antisemitic, homophobic, racist etc.. Russian politics is like that, have you ever seen Russian state tv? I don’t excuse it and I don’t like it, in fact I hate it, but the only way those attitudes will change is with democracy. Which the Russians are very sceptical about - and since when has it been a panacea anyway?Democracy isn’t. It’s a hard. It takes patience, commitment, tolerance, acceptance and an open mind but as the American playright Bonnie Greer said “It ain’t pretty but it’s the kindest we humans can be to each other”. |
|
Merseymike
Independent
Posts: 40,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Merseymike on Mar 19, 2018 9:22:18 GMT
Which the Russians are very sceptical about - and since when has it been a panacea anyway?Democracy isn’t. It’s a hard. It takes patience, commitment, tolerance, acceptance and an open mind but as the American playright Bonnie Greer said “It ain’t pretty but it’s the kindest we humans can be to each other”. But to work there has to be a genuine desire for it. It's interesting to note that in that recent HK by election to replace the 4 pro-democracy members of their legislation only 2 were re elected and the other two were pro-Beijing. We also tend to hear from the urban centres. Which is why we were profoundly shocked by Trump because the America most of us visit is liberal and Democratic- we usually don't venture into the boondocks. |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,907
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Mar 19, 2018 9:25:19 GMT
David. Just calm down. It isn't worth all that fuss. Putin is quite popular and he would have won under any circumstances. That is all that matters really isn't it? This is not Surrey in England. It is the Rus of the Czars and of the Soviets. It is slowly adjusting to 'doing different' but it has not utterly transformed established practices of 'adjustment' and 'enhancement'. Should it be different? Of course. It may well improve but it won't if we keep poking it with sticks, shouting at it and laughing at it and making up stories and glorying in every bit of bad news. Calm down about what? I’m quite calm and placid I can assure you😂 Look Carlton, I’m a believer in democracy and so no, I don’t think it’s all that matters. I accept that Russia isn’t a liberal democracy, indeed I previously, in the Anglo-Russian relations thread, said I’m sceptical it can ever be so. That doesn’t mean however that I’m not going to point out vote rigging, kleptocracy, homicidal homophobia and all the other atrocities and crimes that Putinism is responsible for. As for poking Russia with sticks, I’m not in favour of that. I love Russia and the Russian people, indeed I’m lucky enough to have met and count as friends many wonderful Russians. I don’t attack Russia because I hate it and I don’t make up stories about it either. Russia is a wonderful country and it deserves better than Putin. My really quite minor concern here is a prevailing desire on the right in the West to be forever on the tail of Russia and to quite like an element of Cold War. It is the mirror image of the prevailing anti-Americanism on the left in the West (even in America!). I see much of the comment over Salisbury and this election to be far too shrill and far too keen on encouraging division and dislike. Is the Salisbury poisoning an outrage. Yes of course it is. But it is not the Taliban and it is not Aleppo is it? Probably some Russian elements have attempted to eliminate a traitor in a rather pointed form, and on our territory, and with collateral damage to one of ours. It is not the end of times or the outbreak of war. This is what they do. From Trotsky and the ice-pick they have tended to make a point! We have often done things abroad with lots of collateral damage. Stuff happens. Employ a sense of proportion. The election has been conducted in Russia in the manner that they currently do it. So what. You are not the arbiter of the politics of the world. Cast a glance at Korea, South Africa, China and many many states. Like what you see? Thought not. Then why all this flak directed at Russia? Well why? We need friends not more enemies. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 9:29:02 GMT
Democracy isn’t. It’s a hard. It takes patience, commitment, tolerance, acceptance and an open mind but as the American playright Bonnie Greer said “It ain’t pretty but it’s the kindest we humans can be to each other”. . It's interesting to note that in that recent HK by election to replace the 4 pro-democracy members of their legislation only 2 were re elected and the other two were pro-Beijing. We also tend to hear from the urban centres. Which is why we were profoundly shocked by Trump because the America most of us visit is liberal and Democratic- we usually don't venture into the boondocks. Of course but that doesn’t mean people can’t agitate for it. You’re also right about the attitudes of older Russians who were scarred by Yeltsin’s semi democracy in the 1990’s. However when you ask the young what they want, and the old about their hopes for their children, they describe a Russia which is liberal and democratic. |
|
Merseymike
Independent
Posts: 40,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Merseymike on Mar 19, 2018 9:33:28 GMT
But to work there has to be a genuine desire for it. It's interesting to note that in that recent HK by election to replace the 4 pro-democracy members of their legislation only 2 were re elected and the other two were pro-Beijing. We also tend to hear from the urban centres. Which is why we were profoundly shocked by Trump because the America most of us visit is liberal and Democratic- we usually don't venture into the boondocks. Of course but that doesn’t mean people can’t agitate for it. You’re also right about the attitudes of older Russians who were scarred by Yeltsin’s semi democracy in the 1990’s. However when you ask the young what they want, and the old about their hopes for their children, they describe a Russia which is liberal and democratic. But few do. I think if the banned candidate had been allowed to stand he would have got about 10% - perhaps increasing the turnout - and nearly all those votes would have been from the urban middle class in the cities. Actually there has been evidence which displays that in some Eastern European countries the youth are becoming more authoritarian. Poland is a good example. This is worth reading Vlad the improver still first election choice for Putin generations www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/18/putin-young-generation-election-choice |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 9:42:40 GMT
Calm down about what? I’m quite calm and placid I can assure you😂 Look Carlton, I’m a believer in democracy and so no, I don’t think it’s all that matters. I accept that Russia isn’t a liberal democracy, indeed I previously, in the Anglo-Russian relations thread, said I’m sceptical it can ever be so. That doesn’t mean however that I’m not going to point out vote rigging, kleptocracy, homicidal homophobia and all the other atrocities and crimes that Putinism is responsible for. As for poking Russia with sticks, I’m not in favour of that. I love Russia and the Russian people, indeed I’m lucky enough to have met and count as friends many wonderful Russians. I don’t attack Russia because I hate it and I don’t make up stories about it either. Russia is a wonderful country and it deserves better than Putin. My really quite minor concern here is a prevailing desire on the right in the West to be forever on the tail of Russia and to quite like an element of Cold War. It is the mirror image of the prevailing anti-Americanism on the left in the West (even in America!). I see much of the comment over Salisbury and this election to be far too shrill and far too keen on encouraging division and dislike. Is the Salisbury poisoning an outrage. Yes of course it is. But it is not the Taliban and it is not Aleppo is it? Probably some Russian elements have attempted to eliminate a traitor in a rather pointed form, and on our territory, and with collateral damage to one of ours. It is not the end of times or the outbreak of war. This is what they do. From Trotsky and the ice-pick they have tended to make a point! We have often done things abroad with lots of collateral damage. Stuff happens. Employ a sense of proportion. The election has been conducted in Russia in the manner that they currently do it. So what. You are not the arbiter of the politics of the world. Cast a glance at Korea, South Africa, China and many many states. Like what you see? Thought not. Then why all this flak directed at Russia? Well why? We need friends not more enemies. First paragraph - I agree. Second Paragraph - I don’t understand your point really. I know the Russian intelligence services have always done this but that doesn’t mean the government can’t respond, they must. They wouldn’t be much of a Conservative Government if they didn’t. Third, I made it clear, I can’t make it any more clear, that I believe in freedom. I’m a Tory, I believe in democracy and freedom and I’ll agitate and speak up for it and demonstrate for it and support those who do. I’m allowed to. I don’t understand your point. If we had that attitude nothing would ever have changed for the better. I actually think saying “you’re not the arbiter of the politics of the world” is quite an insulting and disreputable thing to say actually. I never claimed I was, the whole point of democracy is to try to shape the world. If you don’t want to shape the world why are you a member of a political party? Why are you debating on this forum if not to put your opinion across and get exposed to new ideas? Most things we agree on Carlton, but on this we are poles apart and I truly do not understand your position. Finally, you’re right I don’t like what I see when I see South Africa, China, the DPRK or for that matter Brussels, Westminster, Bute House. That’s why I joined the Conservative and Unionist Party, to try and change things. |
|
|
|
Post by yellowperil on Mar 19, 2018 9:47:49 GMT
The city is St Petersburg but the oblast around it remains known as Leningrad Oblast. Thank you,now I understand. I was looking at David's message, looking at my screen in Russian, translating it into English, and wondering what sort of parallel universe I was in where I was in Leningrad heaven while David was condemned to St Petersburg hell. I suppose the question reasserts itself though as why if they change the name of the city back to St Petersburg did they leave the name of the Oblast as Leningrad? Or was it a way of commemorating the history of the heroes of the Great Patriotic War? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 9:47:49 GMT
Of course but that doesn’t mean people can’t agitate for it. You’re also right about the attitudes of older Russians who were scarred by Yeltsin’s semi democracy in the 1990’s. However when you ask the young what they want, and the old about their hopes for their children, they describe a Russia which is liberal and democratic. But few do. I think if the banned candidate had been allowed to stand he would have got about 10% - perhaps increasing the turnout - and nearly all those votes would have been from the urban middle class in the cities. Actually there has been evidence which displays that in some Eastern European countries the youth are becoming more authoritarian. Poland is a good example. This is worth reading Vlad the improver still first election choice for Putin generations www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/18/putin-young-generation-election-choiceI disagree with your opinion in your first paragraph, the Russians I’ve met talk about an end to corruption and making their voices heard. I agree about Poland though, it’s a worrying situation. However, I will read that article, later. It’s already 9:47 and I need to go out or I’ll get in a LOT of trouble😂. |
|
Merseymike
Independent
Posts: 40,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Merseymike on Mar 19, 2018 9:56:10 GMT
But few do. I think if the banned candidate had been allowed to stand he would have got about 10% - perhaps increasing the turnout - and nearly all those votes would have been from the urban middle class in the cities. Actually there has been evidence which displays that in some Eastern European countries the youth are becoming more authoritarian. Poland is a good example. This is worth reading Vlad the improver still first election choice for Putin generations www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/18/putin-young-generation-election-choiceI disagree with your opinion in your first paragraph, the Russians I’ve met talk about an end to corruption and making their voices heard. I agree about Poland though, it’s a worrying situation. However, I will read that article, later. It’s already 9:47 and I need to go out or I’ll get in a LOT of trouble😂. But I doubt whether the Russians you have met are living in the Russian countryside or small towns. We get a very slanted view because we hear from the urban educated middle class. If the perspectives from the UK came from say Lowestoft or Wigan rather than London a very different picture would be created! |
|
