Alyn & Deeside (Welsh Assembly)

[CatholicLeft]

Dec 4, 2017 11:51:15 GMT Merseymike said:

I sincerely hope that Welsh Labour will have the sense to shortlist the candidates the local party want. And to accept the fact that Carwyn Jones should stand down.

Serious question: what has Carwyn Jones actually done wrong, beyond reacting to accusations in the same way that everybody else does these days?
Whilst I understand the hurt of the family and friends of the late Mr. Sargeant, I don't get the reaction of everybody else. Who was to know that a man who was trusted as a government minister and the pressures of that job would react so devastatingly to his suspension?
It seems that the response to what some called a witch-hunt is to begin a witch-hunt against Mr. Jones.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Indeed. The comment that "no-one told Carl Sargeant of the details of the accusations before he died" ignores the fact that no-one could have known they only had four days to do so.

[Merseymike]

Dec 4, 2017 12:25:11 GMT CatholicLeft said:

Dec 4, 2017 11:51:15 GMT Merseymike said:

I sincerely hope that Welsh Labour will have the sense to shortlist the candidates the local party want. And to accept the fact that Carwyn Jones should stand down.

Serious question: what has Carwyn Jones actually done wrong, beyond reacting to accusations in the same way that everybody else does these days?
Whilst I understand the hurt of the family and friends of the late Mr. Sargeant, I don't get the reaction of everybody else. Who was to know that a man who was trusted as a government minister and the pressures of that job would react so devastatingly to his suspension?
It seems that the response to what some called a witch-hunt is to begin a witch-hunt against Mr. Jones.

I think that not telling someone what they are supposed to have done is ridiculous. If someone makes an accusation in my view they must be prepared to substantiate it publicly and the party need to inform someone accused exactly who is accusing them of what. That's simple natural justice.

Jones is nearing the likely end of his time anyway and I think this would be a sensible time for him to go.

[Merseymike]

Dec 4, 2017 12:28:36 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Indeed. The comment that "no-one told Carl Sargeant of the details of the accusations before he died" ignores the fact that no-one could have known they only had four days to do so.

Should have been done before any suspension or dismissal in my view.

[The Bishop]

Dec 4, 2017 12:30:14 GMT Merseymike said:

Jones is nearing the likely end of his time anyway and I think this would be a sensible time for him to go.

I think this may be the salient point, tbh. This sad event may have slightly accelerated a process that was happening anyway.

[Merseymike]

Dec 4, 2017 12:33:52 GMT @barnabymarder said:

If Bernie Atto is reading this (or indeed if he isn't), I sincerely hope that he won't stand as an Independent if Labour do not select him.

It's pretty clear the local party want him to stand so we should just select him

[LDCaerdydd]

Dec 4, 2017 12:58:09 GMT Merseymike said:

Dec 4, 2017 12:33:52 GMT @barnabymarder said:

If Bernie Atto is reading this (or indeed if he isn't), I sincerely hope that he won't stand as an Independent if Labour do not select him.

It's pretty clear the local party want him to stand so we should just select him

Do they? Or are you basing that on a small number of grieving members being particularly vocal on Twitter?

[Merseymike]

Dec 4, 2017 13:04:37 GMT LDCaerdydd said:

Dec 4, 2017 12:58:09 GMT Merseymike said:

It's pretty clear the local party want him to stand so we should just select him

Do they? Or are you basing that on a small number of grieving members being particularly vocal on Twitter?

I don't live that far away. He is a popular local man. Under the circumstances its totally understandable that they want someone local to succeed Carl Sergeant

[CatholicLeft]

Dec 4, 2017 12:30:14 GMT Merseymike said:

Dec 4, 2017 12:25:11 GMT CatholicLeft said:

Serious question: what has Carwyn Jones actually done wrong, beyond reacting to accusations in the same way that everybody else does these days?
Whilst I understand the hurt of the family and friends of the late Mr. Sargeant, I don't get the reaction of everybody else. Who was to know that a man who was trusted as a government minister and the pressures of that job would react so devastatingly to his suspension?
It seems that the response to what some called a witch-hunt is to begin a witch-hunt against Mr. Jones.

I think that not telling someone what they are supposed to have done is ridiculous. If someone makes an accusation in my view they must be prepared to substantiate it publicly and the party need to inform someone accused exactly who is accusing them of what. That's simple natural justice.

Jones is nearing the likely end of his time anyway and I think this would be a sensible time for him to go.

It is ridiculous, but, sadly, it is the way these matters are dealt with and, I would guess, Mr Jones was told he could not share the details, even if he knew them all. I know of people suspended from work without any knowledge of the accusations against them for several weeks. I think that the wrong person is being blamed.
It is the system that is a crock.

[LDCaerdydd]

By-election called for Tuesday 6th February.

[Foggy]

Dec 4, 2017 14:30:55 GMT CatholicLeft said:

Dec 4, 2017 12:30:14 GMT Merseymike said:

I think that not telling someone what they are supposed to have done is ridiculous. If someone makes an accusation in my view they must be prepared to substantiate it publicly and the party need to inform someone accused exactly who is accusing them of what. That's simple natural justice.

Jones is nearing the likely end of his time anyway and I think this would be a sensible time for him to go.

It is ridiculous, but, sadly, it is the way these matters are dealt with and, I would guess, Mr Jones was told he could not share the details, even if he knew them all. I know of people suspended from work without any knowledge of the accusations against them for several weeks. 

People accused of wrongdoing pending an investigation have a right to be informed of the details of the accusations against them in a prompt manner. Of course nobody could've known that Mr Sargeant would take his own life within 4 days, but I think any delay beyond 48 hours stretches the definition of 'prompt' too far. 

[CatholicLeft]

Dec 4, 2017 21:36:20 GMT Foggy said:

Dec 4, 2017 14:30:55 GMT CatholicLeft said:

It is ridiculous, but, sadly, it is the way these matters are dealt with and, I would guess, Mr Jones was told he could not share the details, even if he knew them all. I know of people suspended from work without any knowledge of the accusations against them for several weeks. 

People accused of wrongdoing pending an investigation have a right to be informed of the details of the accusations against them in a prompt manner. Of course nobody could've known that Mr Sargeant would take his own life within 4 days, but I think any delay beyond 48 hours stretches the definition of 'prompt' too far. 

They should have the right, but it often doesn't happen.

[Harry Hayfield]

Dec 4, 2017 15:18:07 GMT LDCaerdydd said:

By-election called for Tuesday 6th February.

Is this an example of the Senedd using its powers over elections for the first time? If so, then a) when was the last time that an election (national / by-election) was held on a Tuesday (and what was the turnout like) and b) could we see other changes (for instance a next day count instead of an overnight count or extension of the franchise to sixteen year olds)?

[LDCaerdydd]

The last parliamentary by-election not held on a Thursday was the Hamilton by-election, 1978, held on Wednesday 31 May due to a World Cup opening match on the Thursday evening.

As we know on this forum local by-elections occur on other days of the week from time to time.

I’m not sure the Assembly ‘using their power’ is a reason for the unusual day.

I don’t see any reason why this election couldn’t have been held on 1st February for example. Whilst the circumstances are tragic and upsetting there is no real reason IMO for leaving it until the very last minute to fill.

[johnloony]

Dec 5, 2017 8:17:10 GMT Harry Hayfield said:

Dec 4, 2017 15:18:07 GMT LDCaerdydd said:

By-election called for Tuesday 6th February.

Is this an example of the Senedd using its powers over elections for the first time? If so, then a) when was the last time that an election (national / by-election) was held on a Tuesday (and what was the turnout like) and b) could we see other changes (for instance a next day count instead of an overnight count or extension of the franchise to sixteen year olds)?

The last time a parliamentary by-election was held on a non-Thursday was Hamilton, Wednesday 31st May 1978. The Returning Officer decided to set the date as Wednesday to avoid a clash with a World Cup football match on the Thursday. The 1931 general election was on a Tuesday; the last time a parliamentary by-election was on a Tuesday was... er... don't know

[Deleted]

"‘In deciding upon the date, the Llywydd has taken account of the sensitivities of the circumstances which led to the vacancy arising, the practical arrangements for the effective management of the by-election and the impact of the Christmas period on arrangements.

The 6th of February is statutorily the last possible day on which the by-election can take place.

Although elections and by-elections, by convention, have taken place on Thursdays, there is no statutory compulsion to do so.

In these circumstances, the Llywydd believes that this decision provides all political parties and candidates with the maximum opportunity to prepare and also enables the local authority to make the necessary arrangements in a timely way.’"

From a local news website.

[Deleted]

LAB HOLD 15% MAJ

[Deleted]

The last welsh yougov poll didnt look too good for Carwyn with almost as many people saying he should go as saying he should stay

[Penddu]

While I don't believe that Carwyn should go because of this, he is reaching his sell-by date, and was planning to leave in next few years in any case.

But who would be his successor? there are not many obvious choices - and most of them do not have much voter appeal.

Ken Skates? Vaughan Gething? Alun Davies?

The only one that I could see having a broad appeal is Eluned Morgan....

[samdwebber]

Surely former MP and Minister Huw Irranca-Davies would be in with a good chance of becoming next Leader if and when there is a vacancy?