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Post by Merseymike on Apr 16, 2017 21:36:52 GMT
Why not treat Erdogan as Assad? Because Assad while deeply problematic is essentially a secularist and his opponents are largely shades of Islamist. Conversely Erdogan has shifted a secular country towards Islamism and I fully expect this to greatly increase. He clearly enables Isis and cleverly played the role of economic liberaliser to get the secular middle classes on board. He has also effectively silenced much of the opposition - both liberal-secular and Kurdish |
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mondialito
Labour
Everything is horribly, brutally possible.
Posts: 4,961 
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Post by mondialito on Apr 16, 2017 21:46:28 GMT
Erdogan's Victory Speech
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 21:54:17 GMT
I never realised it before, but one watching this it suddenly became clear that Erdogan is actually the Emperor Palpatine! |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,135
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Post by Foggy on Apr 16, 2017 21:59:14 GMT
Is there any serious doubt that Die Fuhrer Erdogan will get his way again? * der Führer |
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Post by mrpastelito on Apr 16, 2017 22:05:24 GMT
Is there any serious doubt that Die Fuhrer Erdogan will get his way again? * der Führer I love this forum. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Apr 16, 2017 22:06:36 GMT
This was the ultimate rigged referendum where Yes literally means whatever you want it to.
There was no question on the ballot paper, just Yes & No...
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myth11
Non-Aligned
too busy at work!
Posts: 2,840
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Post by myth11 on Apr 16, 2017 22:08:07 GMT
Erdogan did better with ex pats winning 59.2% to 40.8% overseas.
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Izzyeviel
Lib Dem
I stayed up for Hartlepools
Posts: 3,279
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Post by Izzyeviel on Apr 16, 2017 22:08:12 GMT
This was the ultimate rigged referendum where Yes literally means whatever you want it to. There was no question on the ballot paper, just Yes & No... Sounds familiar... |
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myth11
Non-Aligned
too busy at work!
Posts: 2,840
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Post by myth11 on Apr 16, 2017 22:13:55 GMT
Erdogan won the Netherlands by 71% to 29% .....
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Post by curiousliberal on Apr 16, 2017 22:26:38 GMT
Why do you assume it is contrary to the will of the people? It is not necessarily contrary, but the will of the people has far less bearing on it than it should in any kind of country that calls itself a democracy. |
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Post by johnloony on Apr 16, 2017 22:57:47 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if, in ten years' time, Turkey is an islamo-fascist hellhole in the grip of a civil war like Iraq or Syria, from which all the young urban people have fled to Europe.
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,785
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Post by john07 on Apr 16, 2017 23:02:55 GMT
That is not a good result for Erdogan given the imbalance in the media and journals (at least those not in jail).
Could this be the first signs of crumbling in the Erdogan establishment?
Trouble ahead?
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,813
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Post by Georg Ebner on Apr 16, 2017 23:03:17 GMT
Peter Scholl-Latour (a german DocumentaryFilmer) reported, that among the militarical oligarchy he found many centraleuropean (deriving from deported christian boys) and centralasian (i.e. real Turks) faces.
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,054
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Post by jamie on Apr 16, 2017 23:05:29 GMT
"So this is how Liberty dies, to thunderous applause..." |
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,813
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Post by Georg Ebner on Apr 16, 2017 23:08:56 GMT
Erdogan won the Netherlands by 71% to 29% ..... And my Austria with 73%! Not surprising, although partly caused by the negative reactions of our governments (D, NL, BEL, LUX and A) to Erdogan's provocations. |
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Post by Andrew_S on Apr 16, 2017 23:54:59 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if, in ten years' time, Turkey is an islamo-fascist hellhole in the grip of a civil war like Iraq or Syria, from which all the young urban people have fled to Europe. I don't think this is any exaggeration. It could happen. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Apr 17, 2017 0:12:10 GMT
"So this is how Liberty dies, to thunderous applause..." You have just quoted the worst film of all time. The only punishment suitable for this crime is death. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Apr 17, 2017 10:31:22 GMT
I am in danger of ploughing a lone furrow it seems. I am not a particular fan of Erdogan. I don't actually know much about him but this is not critical to my point. He clearly has widespread support and certainly a comfortable plurality of support. Whether it is quite 50% is open to debate but even that is certainly not disproven. He lost the vote in Ankara and Istanbul but even there the demonstrations of support were significant and clearly genuine. He clearly has the majority support of the Police and Army which makes the bizarre wish of supposed liberals that he be deposed by coup slightly schizo. So I ask again. Who gets to decide that because they dont like the democratic result, it is OK to by pass it by force? The issue here is not if the decision is wise. The issue is, is it legitimate? I don't think it is remotely controversial to suggest that a referendum that takes place amid a state of near war between the government and a significant minority of the population, and thus suppression of that minority's vote, is entirely lacking in democratic legitimacy. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Apr 17, 2017 11:28:28 GMT
I don't think it is remotely controversial to suggest that a referendum that takes place amid a state of near war between the government and a significant minority of the population, and thus suppression of that minority's vote, is entirely lacking in democratic legitimacy. I have highlighted the bits that are debateable. Well perhaps you can explain what you find questionable about any of these points. If you genuinely don't think there has been widespread vote suppression you obviously haven't been paying attention. |
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myth11
Non-Aligned
too busy at work!
Posts: 2,840
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Post by myth11 on Apr 17, 2017 12:07:41 GMT
The west has not helped in recent years and has never looked outside the big urban areas apart from the west coast.
EU-Turkey custom union was a bad deal for turkey which hurt a lot of non EU exporters.
2004 Cyprus peace plan where the Turks voted yes and Greeks voted no but the Greeks still joined the EU.
Reforms aimed at joining the EU have weakened the power of army hit small framers hard.
In basic terms the west has been kicking western learning Turks in nuts for years and yet we are shocked when someone like Erdogan comes along.
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