jamie
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Post by jamie on Apr 16, 2017 18:49:02 GMT
This is the great self appointed liberal dilemma. Where do you stand when the democratic will of the people is to carry out some illiberal acts? Why do you assume it is the will of the people? This is Erdogan's Turkey... |
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Apr 16, 2017 18:53:44 GMT
Well I imagine all those intentionally displaced Kurds would have voted for the new constitution...
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Post by Antiochian on Apr 16, 2017 18:57:14 GMT
Next step for Erdogan will be his installation as Sultan and Caliph after the appropriate acclamation by the people. Don't laugh.... this man is now more ambitious and delusional than Saddam ever was. The only thing that stands between him and neo-Ottoman ambitions is his health... and it's not just Deep State scuttlebutt that it is not good. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 19:05:22 GMT
This is the great self appointed liberal dilemma. Where do you stand when the democratic will of the people is to carry out some illiberal acts? Adolf Hitler came to power on the "will of the people", and through "democratic" election but look what he did. Those who then tried to kill him in 1944 were heroes and patriots. By the acts of murder and genocide committed by his supporters and ordered and led by him (acts which were certainly not endorsed through election) he became a tyrant and justly deserving of overthrow, if not death.
The people, even an individual, has the right to take action to protect the greater good of the state and the law which one man is not and cannot be above. If Sultan Erdogan goes down the route of tyranny he should expect what justice will be delivered. It is no good telling the innocent man, woman or child who are the victims of his actions that their reward will be in heaven because that only encourages the tyranny.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 16, 2017 19:24:11 GMT
So is this a free and fair vote? Surely someone who staged a fake coup wouldn't allow a free vote on increasing his own power? Its about as free and fair as any other recent Turkush election where a lot of opponents are too intimidated to vote. Odd how some strong opponents of Islamism apoear to excuse Muslim Brotherhood member Erdogan. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 16, 2017 19:24:55 GMT
Why do you assume it is contrary to the will of the people? Because its Erdogan's Turkey..... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 19:30:04 GMT
All agreed. Then I read lots of supposedly liberal stuff about Trump not being "my president" refusal to accept the results of referenda on Brexit and Indy and I wonder where different people draw the line between doing what they as a self appointed arbiter thinks is right and accepting the democratic and judicial results. And how they would view it if perhaps those they regard as illiberal were equally sanguine about obeying the law There is a clear difference between someone who wins a narrow victory in a democratic election with polices that are sane, and somebody who wins an election based on the premise that a section of the population will be "eliminated" and democratic and personal freedoms denied. In the former case another election can always produce a different result. In the later case there is no democratic option open. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Apr 16, 2017 19:58:48 GMT
The fact that the principle agents of democratisation in Turkey have also turned out to be its murderers is one of the bitterest ironies of our times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 20:05:02 GMT
The fact that the principle agents of democratisation in Turkey have also turned out to be its murderers is one of the bitterest ironies of our times. I think the Sultan was quite clear from the start why he wanted a "democratic" Turkey, many of us saw through his barely disguised objectives. Shame there is no Ataturk around today to put in him in his place... |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Apr 16, 2017 20:10:32 GMT
I wondered at the time of the coup, how long it would be before we started wishing it had succeeded. It turns out it was just 9 months...  Next step for Erdogan will be his installation as Sultan and Caliph after the appropriate acclamation by the people. I honestly surprised he hasn't seriously raised the prospect of re-creating the position of Caliph - it's the logical next step for him and no one can stop him. (Right before bringing in the Enabling Act, obvs) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 20:15:56 GMT
I wondered at the time of the coup, how long it would be before we started wishing it had succeeded. It turns out it was just 9 months... Next step for Erdogan will be his installation as Sultan and Caliph after the appropriate acclamation by the people. I honestly surprised he hasn't seriously raised the prospect of re-creating the position of Caliph - it's the logical next step for him and no one can stop him. (Right before bringing in the Enabling Act, obvs) re Enabling Act: Turkish Parliament will need to "go on fire" before that happens, but I am sure in Caliph Erodgan's Turkey spontaneous combustion could happen.. but it would help if they could find a Communist Kurd who they could blame it on... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 20:18:14 GMT
With over 99% of votes cast Yes have won the referendum. They are currently on 51.4% Yes - 48.6% No. Yes ! its a "Turksxit" |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 16, 2017 20:23:21 GMT
I wondered at the time of the coup, how long it would be before we started wishing it had succeeded. It turns out it was just 9 months... Speak for yourself. It took me 9 seconds |
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Apr 16, 2017 20:30:57 GMT
I honestly surprised he hasn't seriously raised the prospect of re-creating the position of Caliph - it's the logical next step for him and no one can stop him. (Right before bringing in the Enabling Act, obvs) Baghdadi got their first. Copying him would have led to unfortunate comparisons. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 20:36:53 GMT
I honestly surprised he hasn't seriously raised the prospect of re-creating the position of Caliph - it's the logical next step for him and no one can stop him. (Right before bringing in the Enabling Act, obvs) Baghdadi got their first. Copying him would have led to unfortunate comparisons. I think the Ayatollah Khamenei in Tehran would also have a few objections especially if the successful candidate (aka Erdogan) wasn't descended from Ali (which Er-do-wan, isn't) |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Apr 16, 2017 20:59:05 GMT
I honestly surprised he hasn't seriously raised the prospect of re-creating the position of Caliph - it's the logical next step for him and no one can stop him. (Right before bringing in the Enabling Act, obvs) Baghdadi got their first. Copying him would have led to unfortunate comparisons. This is probably the biggest impediment to Erdogan... |
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Post by An Sionnach Flannbhuí on Apr 16, 2017 21:04:03 GMT
I wondered at the time of the coup, how long it would be before we started wishing it had succeeded. It turns out it was just 9 months... Speak for yourself. It took me 9 seconds Do you take that attitude on Syria? In Syria your party's attitude is authoritarian hard man good, rebels bad. Why not treat Erdogan as Assad? |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Apr 16, 2017 21:05:14 GMT
Is there any serious doubt that Die Fuhrer Erdogan will get his way again? Looks like the final result may be 51-49 in favour of Yes. Whatever it 'really' was? |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 16, 2017 21:11:35 GMT
Speak for yourself. It took me 9 seconds Do you take that attitude on Syria? In Syria your party's attitude is authoritarian hard man good, rebels bad. Why not treat Erdogan as Assad? I think my party's attitude to Syria is not that Assad is good but that the alternatives are likely to be worse - that's certainly my own view anyway, which is the only relevant thing here since, as far as I'm aware (and I know there has been a fair bit of flux at the top of the party) I have not been appointed UKIP's foreign affairs spokesman |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 16, 2017 21:32:42 GMT
not that Assad is good but that the alternatives are likely to be worse - that's certainly my own view anyway This happens very rarely but it's also mine..... |
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