J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,784 
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jan 14, 2017 23:28:01 GMT
If so, it has two important consequences for the LDs. (...) we can be as pro-EU as we like and still attract Leave voters if we convince them that we are addressing the things that made those voters pissed off in the first place. You don't attract the leave voters by saying "everybody who voted leave was wrong, we're going to do everything we can to obstruct the will of (slightly more than half of) the people, if only we'd waited for old people to die off and prevented young people from becoming old people". You attract the leave voters by saying: yes, we're going to leave, but half of the population were sufficiently happy with the EU that they voted remain, and we acknowledge that the country is split down the middle on this, and we shall argue for and campaign to adopt into UK law as much of what we can persuade as many people are the beneficial aspects of being in the EU and acknowledge that there are disbenefits of being in the EU that we should not incorporate into UK law. And clearly say: grow up and stop whining like spoilt brats claiming the world is ending. Additionally, those on the Leave side have to also acknowledge that the country is split down the middle and not steamroller their way along ignoring half the country, and have to do the above vis versa. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 14, 2017 23:53:48 GMT
I've seen some remarkable Council by-election results over the years, but... This is the second gain from Labour when we started in fourth place. By the way the LDs in Three Rivers are hardly a protest party - we have run the Council there for many years. The other, Mosborough, was a ward with a decent Lib Dem history, and a strong local party. This one is more impressive. Though both of them had considerable controversy regarding the Labour candidate in Mosborough's case, and the previous councillor, in this one. I think we have ourselves to blame, frankly. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 14, 2017 23:55:00 GMT
You don't attract the leave voters by saying "everybody who voted leave was wrong, we're going to do everything we can to obstruct the will of (slightly more than half of) the people, if only we'd waited for old people to die off and prevented young people from becoming old people". You attract the leave voters by saying: yes, we're going to leave, but half of the population were sufficiently happy with the EU that they voted remain, and we acknowledge that the country is split down the middle on this, and we shall argue for and campaign to adopt into UK law as much of what we can persuade as many people are the beneficial aspects of being in the EU and acknowledge that there are disbenefits of being in the EU that we should not incorporate into UK law. And clearly say: grow up and stop whining like spoilt brats claiming the world is ending. Additionally, those on the Leave side have to also acknowledge that the country is split down the middle and not steamroller their way along ignoring half the country, and have to do the above vis versa. On first sentence: agreed, but obvious. On second: its a valid approach, but is based on the analysis that most Leave voters see leaving the EU as of primary importance that trumps everything else. bigfatron is arguing, and I agree, that is a misunderstanding of the nature of the vote. Of course we could be wrong. But since the debate has been started as a way of trying to understand how we can win a ward by a big margin in Sunderland, (and I'm pretty sure there have been other LD wins in Leave voting areas) I'd say that there is some evidence to support our view. There is absolutely no evidence that LDs can't win in Leave voting areas despite the fact that Farron has pretty clearly nailed his colours to the Remain mast. So, no, we don't have to say "yes we're going to Leave" to attract at least some Leave voters. Not all of them, as Ron clearly acknowledged, and I would agree. But all of them is not what is needed. Nor is getting the support of all of the electorate a realistic strategy for any party. Get the support of the 48% and one tenth of the 52% and you would have a LD majority government. |
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Post by Zardoz on Jan 15, 2017 2:25:27 GMT
You are seriously citing a fucking voodoo online poll on here? Actually, to be honest, I accidentally posted in the wrong thread! This was meant for the Stoke by-election thread. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 15, 2017 8:52:27 GMT
It occurs to me overnight that what I really want to say is that you don't attract Leave voters by saying anything, or at least not at first. The poor sods are fed up with being told things. The first thing to do is listen to what they have to say.
But what I'm hearing, albeit in unscientific vox pops, isn't much to do with the EU.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,952
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Post by The Bishop on Jan 15, 2017 10:32:01 GMT
You are seriously citing a fucking voodoo online poll on here? Actually, to be honest, I accidentally posted in the wrong thread! This was meant for the Stoke by-election thread. Its equally meaningless whatever thread it is posted in. |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,766
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Post by mboy on Jan 15, 2017 10:54:10 GMT
The things that bother them that are to do with the EU are: eroded identity, immigration levels*, ECHR rulings** (that block deportation of dangerous foreigners, or hand extra privileges to bad people), and the perception that distant elites run the show. * The EU is half of the immigration issue (the non-Islamic half), but has been drawn into the Islamic refugee (and terrorism) issue thanks to Merkel ** The ECHR is not a part of the EU, but many constitutional lawyers believe that adherence to the ECHR is a condition of EU membership. It's disingenuous to pretend that there is no connection between the two. E.g: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06577/SN06577.pdf |
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Post by tonygreaves on Jan 15, 2017 14:49:35 GMT
Most people don't use words like "disingenuous"!
I remember in the very early days of the SDP a member at their conference heckled a speaker by shouting "disingenuous". Some journalist (possibly Simon Hoggart) took the piss, and rightly!
The serious point here is that people are more and more willing to vote different ways at different polls.
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Post by thirdchill on Jan 15, 2017 14:55:26 GMT
The serious point here is that people are more and more willing to vote different ways at different polls. Or in some cases for candidates from different parties when there is an election for more than one councillor in a ward under FPTP, rather than following the ticket and voting for all of them from one party. Sometimes that is a personal vote for a candidate, other times because whilst they support a particular party nationally, they won't vote for that party locally. manchesterman is an example of this, voting labour at national level but not in local elections in salford. |
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Post by mrhell on Jan 15, 2017 15:04:58 GMT
A bit of fun at 32 seconds as the Labour loudhailer car passes us in Sandhill. As the camera is pointed at the Labour car you can't see many Lib Dems waving at them which clearly annoys the guy speaking. I didn't wave but gave the "hi" which can be heard. If you want to know what I look like at 55 secs I hand a coffee flask back to a young woman (my rosette is at a slant).
Myself and Jonathan were the oldest people there (although the former regional chair helped earlier in the day). We've passed from rising hopes to elder statesmen without any intervening period whatsoever.
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carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,943
Member is Online
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Post by carlton43 on Jan 15, 2017 15:43:29 GMT
Most people don't use words like "disingenuous"! I remember in the very early days of the SDP a member at their conference heckled a speaker by shouting "disingenuous". Some journalist (possibly Simon Hoggart) took the piss, and rightly! The serious point here is that people are more and more willing to vote different ways at different polls. How disappointingly British an attitude. People should use their own language fully effectively employing a rich vocabulary. They should not be afraid of or daunted by appropriate words. There is far more to life than Sun-speak and Mirror-speak. Short pithy words are not the only fruit! "Simon Hoggart took the piss and rightly!" What a terrible attitude! How very 'You'!! |
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SR4
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1
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Post by SR4 on Jan 15, 2017 15:57:33 GMT
As a resident of Sunderland - although not Sandhill - I think part of the Lib Dem success is thanks to on the one hand the fact that Labour in Sunderland seem rather prone to shooting itself in the foot, and then pretending nothing is amiss (and I speak as a former Labour party member).
The other reason is that, when it comes to a protest vote, the Sunderland electorate at large always seem to draw the line at transfering their vote to the Tories or UKIP (just as they resisted the BNP a few years ago, when they were targeting just about every ward locally). The Greens locally are, sadly, pretty anaemic. I thought at one stage the North East Party (formed by disillusioned Labour members, and winning seats in East Durham) were supposed to be standing, and if they had done it might have been interesting, but... so for many wanting to protest vote, Lib Dems were the only real choice.
Not to take anything from the Lib Dems, of course - they put in the work, and reaped the benefit.
I live in the Millfield ward, which Lib Dems won from Labour last May (before the EU referendum, please note...). In the weeks leading up to polling day I was in receipt of countless Lib Dem newsletters (virtually one a day in the last week) and the candidate himself came a-knocking at my door.
By contrast, the Labour councillor he unseated was notable by his absence - perhaps because he doesn't actually live in the ward but several miles across the city, in one of the few Tory areas (a point the Lib Dems jumped on in their literature). No door-knocking on behalf of Labour, all we got was a leaflet through the door about a week before polling day, which was so generic that you could have pasted in a different candidate and ward name and used it for just about any town in the UK.
Of the other parties standing - Green and Tories - we received nothing, not even a leaflet. UKIP didn't even get as far as standing a candidate.
I think to some extent Lib Dems won Millfield (and this might also apply to Sandhill to some degree) because they seemed to be the only ones appearing to take the election seriously. They successfully built up their candidate as a real human being, who lived in the ward and was concerned about issues like pot-holes and fly-tipping (and wasn't afraid to be photographed staring with concern at examples of both !), rather than an absentee councillor who you only heard from when he wanted your vote, or other candidates who couldn't even bother to stick a leaflet through your door.
Incidentally, I was interested to see whether the flow of Lib Dem newsletters would persist post-election... it hasn't, though we've had a couple, and our new councillor even sent us xmas cards, which was a nice PR move, I thought.
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Post by mrhell on Jan 15, 2017 17:00:32 GMT
As a resident of Sunderland - although not Sandhill - I think part of the Lib Dem success is thanks to on the one hand the fact that Labour in Sunderland seem rather prone to shooting itself in the foot, and then pretending nothing is amiss (and I speak as a former Labour party member). The other reason is that, when it comes to a protest vote, the Sunderland electorate at large always seem to draw the line at transfering their vote to the Tories or UKIP (just as they resisted the BNP a few years ago, when they were targeting just about every ward locally). The Greens locally are, sadly, pretty anaemic. I thought at one stage the North East Party (formed by disillusioned Labour members, and winning seats in East Durham) were supposed to be standing, and if they had done it might have been interesting, but... so for many wanting to protest vote, Lib Dems were the only real choice. Not to take anything from the Lib Dems, of course - they put in the work, and reaped the benefit. I live in the Millfield ward, which Lib Dems won from Labour last May ( before the EU referendum, please note...). In the weeks leading up to polling day I was in receipt of countless Lib Dem newsletters (virtually one a day in the last week) and the candidate himself came a-knocking at my door. By contrast, the Labour councillor he unseated was notable by his absence - perhaps because he doesn't actually live in the ward but several miles across the city, in one of the few Tory areas (a point the Lib Dems jumped on in their literature). No door-knocking on behalf of Labour, all we got was a leaflet through the door about a week before polling day, which was so generic that you could have pasted in a different candidate and ward name and used it for just about any town in the UK. Of the other parties standing - Green and Tories - we received nothing, not even a leaflet. UKIP didn't even get as far as standing a candidate. I think to some extent Lib Dems won Millfield (and this might also apply to Sandhill to some degree) because they seemed to be the only ones appearing to take the election seriously. They successfully built up their candidate as a real human being, who lived in the ward and was concerned about issues like pot-holes and fly-tipping (and wasn't afraid to be photographed staring with concern at examples of both !), rather than an absentee councillor who you only heard from when he wanted your vote, or other candidates who couldn't even bother to stick a leaflet through your door. Incidentally, I was interested to see whether the flow of Lib Dem newsletters would persist post-election... it hasn't, though we've had a couple, and our new councillor even sent us xmas cards, which was a nice PR move, I thought. Niall's delivering in a Tory Sunderland ward today. |
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carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,943
Member is Online
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Post by carlton43 on Jan 16, 2017 1:22:10 GMT
As a resident of Sunderland - although not Sandhill - I think part of the Lib Dem success is thanks to on the one hand the fact that Labour in Sunderland seem rather prone to shooting itself in the foot, and then pretending nothing is amiss (and I speak as a former Labour party member). The other reason is that, when it comes to a protest vote, the Sunderland electorate at large always seem to draw the line at transfering their vote to the Tories or UKIP (just as they resisted the BNP a few years ago, when they were targeting just about every ward locally). The Greens locally are, sadly, pretty anaemic. I thought at one stage the North East Party (formed by disillusioned Labour members, and winning seats in East Durham) were supposed to be standing, and if they had done it might have been interesting, but... so for many wanting to protest vote, Lib Dems were the only real choice. Not to take anything from the Lib Dems, of course - they put in the work, and reaped the benefit. I live in the Millfield ward, which Lib Dems won from Labour last May ( before the EU referendum, please note...). In the weeks leading up to polling day I was in receipt of countless Lib Dem newsletters (virtually one a day in the last week) and the candidate himself came a-knocking at my door. By contrast, the Labour councillor he unseated was notable by his absence - perhaps because he doesn't actually live in the ward but several miles across the city, in one of the few Tory areas (a point the Lib Dems jumped on in their literature). No door-knocking on behalf of Labour, all we got was a leaflet through the door about a week before polling day, which was so generic that you could have pasted in a different candidate and ward name and used it for just about any town in the UK. Of the other parties standing - Green and Tories - we received nothing, not even a leaflet. UKIP didn't even get as far as standing a candidate. I think to some extent Lib Dems won Millfield (and this might also apply to Sandhill to some degree) because they seemed to be the only ones appearing to take the election seriously. They successfully built up their candidate as a real human being, who lived in the ward and was concerned about issues like pot-holes and fly-tipping (and wasn't afraid to be photographed staring with concern at examples of both !), rather than an absentee councillor who you only heard from when he wanted your vote, or other candidates who couldn't even bother to stick a leaflet through your door. Incidentally, I was interested to see whether the flow of Lib Dem newsletters would persist post-election... it hasn't, though we've had a couple, and our new councillor even sent us xmas cards, which was a nice PR move, I thought. Niall's delivering in a Tory Sunderland ward today. Some sort of peripatetic political male mid-husband after the event in what had been a Labour Ward? Watch those apostrophes or we shall take you for a greengrocer! |
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Post by mrhell on Jan 16, 2017 5:12:47 GMT
Niall's delivering in a Tory Sunderland ward today Watch those apostrophes or we shall take you for a greengrocer! I'm slightly confused! |
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Post by manchesterman on Feb 1, 2017 19:47:55 GMT
The serious point here is that people are more and more willing to vote different ways at different polls. Or in some cases for candidates from different parties when there is an election for more than one councillor in a ward under FPTP, rather than following the ticket and voting for all of them from one party. Sometimes that is a personal vote for a candidate, other times because whilst they support a particular party nationally, they won't vote for that party locally. manchesterman is an example of this, voting labour at national level but not in local elections in salford. I've never voted along party lines. (hence non-aligned!) and my big thing is for representatives not shackled by party restraints. I generally have voted Labour or LibDem at national elections. I would always try to get to a hustings or something for local candidates - but they seem less and less common nowadays - so that I could get a sounding of each candidates issues/morals etc etc and decide from there. My ideal would be a choice of a handful of candidates all standing as "independents" but I realise that is impractical at least for the foreseeable future! |
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