|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 15, 2017 22:30:47 GMT
5. "Going against democracy"? How? Your party's position is that the uk should stay in EU and it's MPs voted against article 50. Please tell me of this is otherwise as we are loosing many remain voters who have convinced themselves that Labour had betrayed them over article vote and have joined the party they hated at the election just 2 years ago. How do you distinguish yourself from a tory, most Lib Dems on here could easily pass as conservative imo. Yes. That is the party position. That's what political parties do. Set out positions and invite public support. Even when those positions are unpopular (Mr Corbyn can guide you on this). Tories are like Carlton43 I'm not.  |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 15, 2017 22:32:14 GMT
But conversely it could save lives, because the specialist departments that exist at the more distant hospitals might be more readily available if something went tits up we are not talking about any hospital but the one in Copeland which some very highly regarded midwives say closing will put lives at risk. I hope the Tory and Tory lité party's will be running in the next election on at 'we will close down hospitals' platform as you are just lying to people at the minute. Citation required. |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 15, 2017 22:41:16 GMT
But conversely it could save lives, because the specialist departments that exist at the more distant hospitals might be more readily available if something went tits up we are not talking about any hospital but the one in Copeland which some very highly regarded midwives say closing will put lives at risk. I hope the Tory and Tory lité party's will be running in the next election on at 'we will close down hospitals' platform as you are just lying to people at the minute. Again, citation needed. You see Benji you're in grave danger of making a fool of yourself here, because - as far as I am aware - no hospital providing maternity services is proposed for closure in Copeland. My understanding is that the preferred option for Whitehaven is 24hour midwife-led maternity care. The only change is that night-time consultant cover will be withdrawn which means high-risk cases will go to Carlisle. That's my understanding, because I've carried out some basic research into the issue. Have you? |
|
|
|
Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 15, 2017 22:44:48 GMT
I'm going to copeland this weekend. I am not really sure there is any point but I have been talked into it. Labour hold. Increased majority.  Try not to punch anyone ... Actually, you'll be travelling through Westmorland - I think you should give slon a slap on your way through (and Timmy if he's around) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Copeland
Feb 15, 2017 22:50:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 22:50:24 GMT
I'm going to copeland this weekend. I am not really sure there is any point but I have been talked into it. Labour hold. Increased majority. Try not to punch anyone ... Maybe by %, would be suprised if absolute majority increased. |
|
maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312 
|
Post by maxque on Feb 15, 2017 22:52:16 GMT
we are not talking about any hospital but the one in Copeland which some very highly regarded midwives say closing will put lives at risk. I hope the Tory and Tory lité party's will be running in the next election on at 'we will close down hospitals' platform as you are just lying to people at the minute. Again, citation needed. You see Benji you're in grave danger of making a fool of yourself here, because - as far as I am aware - no hospital providing maternity services is proposed for closure in Copeland. My understanding is that the preferred option for Whitehaven is 24hour midwife-led maternity care. The only change is that night-time consultant cover will be withdrawn which means high-risk cases will go to Carlisle. That's my understanding, because I've carried out some basic research into the issue. Have you? But is a 40 miles night trip really a good idea for an high-risk pregnant woman? |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 15, 2017 22:55:28 GMT
Again, citation needed. You see Benji you're in grave danger of making a fool of yourself here, because - as far as I am aware - no hospital providing maternity services is proposed for closure in Copeland. My understanding is that the preferred option for Whitehaven is 24hour midwife-led maternity care. The only change is that night-time consultant cover will be withdrawn which means high-risk cases will go to Carlisle. That's my understanding, because I've carried out some basic research into the issue. Have you? But is a 40 miles night trip really a good idea for an high-risk pregnant woman? Probably not, but not sure that's the intention. |
|
|
|
Copeland
Feb 15, 2017 23:10:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 15, 2017 23:10:54 GMT
Now come on, how many times have Conservatives used unflattering images of Labour politicians in their electioneering? Remember 'demon eyes'? That was a great success. And on the other side, the hilariously useless Dave The Chameleon adverts. |
|
|
|
Copeland
Feb 15, 2017 23:20:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 15, 2017 23:20:31 GMT
Crack down on the inefficiencies then. Something Brown wasn't bad at, to his credit.
|
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 15, 2017 23:21:56 GMT
Obviously entirely unbiased then. No hospital would ever close if we believed everything the staff say about the consequences. the problem with the NHS is its funding model. Until you lot are prepared to discuss it without screaming like fucking children about people dying in the streets, nothing will ever change and the NHS will continue to be cash starved with queues and drug rationing. Why do9 you think nobody else has ever copied it? no until you and the millionaires open your wallets the NHS will be cash starved. Not my problem you are clearly ideologically opposed to tax as a Tory, I realise that. But i'mfighting to protect what the great Nye Bevan set up. ‘The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it.’- you've got to understand that most Labour Party members & supporters take that quote very seriously, we will fight you every step of the way if you even think about switching to an insurance based system. Find the cash to fund it properly then I'll stop going on about it - promise! Are you going to tell us which hospital in Copeland is closing? |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 15, 2017 23:25:06 GMT
Obviously entirely unbiased then. No hospital would ever close if we believed everything the staff say about the consequences. the problem with the NHS is its funding model. Until you lot are prepared to discuss it without screaming like fucking children about people dying in the streets, nothing will ever change and the NHS will continue to be cash starved with queues and drug rationing. Why do9 you think nobody else has ever copied it? no until you and the millionaires open your wallets the NHS will be cash starved. Not my problem you are clearly ideologically opposed to tax as a Tory, I realise that. But i'mfighting to protect what the great Nye Bevan set up. ‘The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it.’- you've got to understand that most Labour Party members & supporters take that quote very seriously, we will fight you every step of the way if you even think about switching to an insurance based system. Find the cash to fund it properly then I'll stop going on about it - promise! I wonder what Aneurin (to give him his proper name) would have thought of the PFIs which are crippling some hospitals (including at least one in Cumbria). And what he'd think of the party which introduced them ... |
|
|
|
Post by mrpastelito on Feb 15, 2017 23:27:58 GMT
no until you and the millionaires open your wallets the NHS will be cash starved. Not my problem you are clearly ideologically opposed to tax as a Tory, I realise that. But i'mfighting to protect what the great Nye Bevan set up. ‘The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it.’- you've got to understand that most Labour Party members & supporters take that quote very seriously, we will fight you every step of the way if you even think about switching to an insurance based system. Find the cash to fund it properly then I'll stop going on about it - promise!Cut all benefits and introduce an atheist tax. |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 15, 2017 23:30:11 GMT
Again, citation needed. You see Benji you're in grave danger of making a fool of yourself here, because - as far as I am aware - no hospital providing maternity services is proposed for closure in Copeland. My understanding is that the preferred option for Whitehaven is 24hour midwife-led maternity care. The only change is that night-time consultant cover will be withdrawn which means high-risk cases will go to Carlisle. That's my understanding, because I've carried out some basic research into the issue. Have you? Labour Party campaign material gave me impression hospital was closing, forgive me if i'm wrong. Also maternity closing is still bad, people could not get to hospital in time. Maternity is not closing. As already explained. I suspect the reality is that the night consultant spends his time twiddling his thumbs, doing things way below his pay scale. At a cost - I would estimate - of £500K per annum. For the occasional high-risk case which will now go to Carlisle. |
|
|
|
Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 15, 2017 23:33:10 GMT
I wonder what Aneurin (to give him his proper name) would have thought of the PFIs which are crippling some hospitals (including at least one in Cumbria). Did the NHS that Bevan created have pay beds in NHS hospitals? Were hospital consultants required to work full time in the NHS or were they allowed to continue private work? Did it require GP surgeries to be owned by the state or did it leave them as private businesses? |
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,042
Member is Online
|
Post by Sibboleth on Feb 15, 2017 23:35:18 GMT
Not sure why funding is being discussed here as that's clearly not been the cause of the winter crisis (at least not directly: social care cuts have clearly not helped). The phrase @benjl (and the Labour Party in general but let us be realistic here comrades) wants to use instead is 'government mismanagement'.
|
|
pomofaced
Non-Aligned
Galactic Space Fascist
Posts: 1,013
|
Post by pomofaced on Feb 15, 2017 23:56:04 GMT
for what its worth I bumped into a friend who is a con member, from cumbria and has campaigned there recently, he said the party are more than 50% confident of winning, so its on edge.
But forecasts are dubious so.....
|
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 51,023
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2017 0:01:34 GMT
no until you and the millionaires open your wallets the NHS will be cash starved. Not my problem you are clearly ideologically opposed to tax as a Tory, I realise that. But i'mfighting to protect what the great Nye Bevan set up. ‘The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it.’- you've got to understand that most Labour Party members & supporters take that quote very seriously, we will fight you every step of the way if you even think about switching to an insurance based system. Find the cash to fund it properly then I'll stop going on about it - promise! I wonder what Aneurin (to give him his proper name) would have thought of the PFIs which are crippling some hospitals (including at least one in Cumbria). And what he'd think of the party which introduced them ... The NHS will last as long as some of us do some work, create some wealth and pay those taxes benjl. Now where do you stand on that scale young fellar' mi lad? You spend a lot of time on here? I hope you are in gainful employment doing something useful and paying lots of lovely tax? Well.......Are You?  ? |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 51,023
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2017 0:03:53 GMT
Not sure why funding is being discussed here as that's clearly not been the cause of the winter crisis (at least not directly: social care cuts have clearly not helped). The phrase @benjl (and the Labour Party in general but let us be realistic here comrades) wants to use instead is 'government mismanagement'. But Sib how do you explain, as this article shows, the massive debt held by trusts, surely we just need to tax and spend some more? Also we have one of the lowest % GDP spend on health of developed countries, its a lie that NHS is to expensive - in reality it runs on a shoestring. SHUM EXPENSES................................SHUM SHOESTRING! |
|
|
|
Post by Chris Whiteside on Feb 16, 2017 0:04:40 GMT
we are not talking about any hospital but the one in Copeland which some very highly regarded midwives say closing will put lives at risk. I hope the Tory and Tory lité party's will be running in the next election on at 'we will close down hospitals' platform as you are just lying to people at the minute. Again, citation needed. You see Benji you're in grave danger of making a fool of yourself here, because - as far as I am aware - no hospital providing maternity services is proposed for closure in Copeland. My understanding is that the preferred option for Whitehaven is 24hour midwife-led maternity care. The only change is that night-time consultant cover will be withdrawn which means high-risk cases will go to Carlisle. That's my understanding, because I've carried out some basic research into the issue. Have you? gwynthegriff is quite correct that neither the West Cumberland Hospital (WCH) which currently provides maternity services in Copeland, nor any other hospital in the area, is proposed for closure. Indeed there has just been a £90 million refurbishment/new build of that hospital which recently opened - the previous Labour government promised it but didn't do it or find the money before they left office. The coalition government actually approved the business case, found the money, and built it. The Conservatives are absolutely not going to close a hospital at which they've only just opened new buildings that they spent £90 million of taxpayers' money on - and it WAS taxpayers' money, not another PFI like the one Labour did at Carlisle, the ongoing payments for which are still threatening to bankrupt the local NHS.
(One of the candidates in the election has a great line about PFI which everyone else except Labour will probably nick - "Buy one hospital, pay for six.")
There is a genuine and serious healthcare issue in the constituency but, frankly, many of the leaflets being put around about it are seriously divorced from the truth and for inaccuracy and scaremongering they rival the worst examples from both sides during the EU referendum.
The "success regime" which is running the local NHS and proposing changes are not "The Tories" and we no more agree with them on everything than the local Labour party agreed with a similar proposal by the then NHS management to remove maternity service when Labour were in government.
It has been claimed in Labour leaflets that the A&E at West Cumberland Hospital might close. This is total rubbish. The success regime's "preferred option" keeps 24 hour A&E care at WCH. There are other options in the consultation but I am not aware that anyone at all supports them, and certainly not the local or national Conservatives.
Similarly Labour leaflets also claim that the Tories are planning to remove all the in-patient beds from the community hospital in Keswick. Again, this is untrue. The success regime's proposed "preferred option" and most of their alternative options would actually increase the number of beds at that cottage hospital from 12 to 16. I am not aware that anyone at all supports the one option which would remove them and again, certainly not the local or national Conservatives.
What the "success regime" IS proposing is to remove consultant-led maternity from the West Cumberland Hospital and replace it with a midwife-led service. Since it was first proposed before the previous MP announced his decision to resign and cause the by election, this option has been vehemently opposed by just about everyone in Copeland including all the obstetricians at West Cumberland Hospital, the local midwives, all the local political parties including the local Conservatives and that most certainly does include the Conservative candidate in the by-election who gave birth to her own four children at West Cumberland Hospital.
So to be clear about what is and isn't true
1) In my opinion the local Labour party are being dishonest when they say that A&E at WCH or beds at Keswick are threatened and when they imply that hospitals might close.
2) They are also entirely in the wrong to suggest that a Conservative win would be a green light for hospital closures or service reductions since the Conservative candidate has been crystal clear during the campaign that she opposes such closures.
3) There is indeed a genuine threat to maternity services but just as a very similar proposal which came forward when Labour were in government was defeated after being fought by everyone locally on a cross party basis, this one should have been opposed on a cross party basis as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by manchesterman on Feb 16, 2017 0:07:38 GMT
no until you and the millionaires open your wallets the NHS will be cash starved. Not my problem you are clearly ideologically opposed to tax as a Tory, I realise that. But i'mfighting to protect what the great Nye Bevan set up. ‘The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it.’- you've got to understand that most Labour Party members & supporters take that quote very seriously, we will fight you every step of the way if you even think about switching to an insurance based system. Find the cash to fund it properly then I'll stop going on about it - promise!Cut all benefits and introduce an atheist tax. Speaking as an agnostic, where does that leave me? ... in every sense!  |
|
