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Post by Antiochian on Dec 22, 2016 15:19:35 GMT
The Labourites can chuckle at Balls but frankly Strictly has made him a supernova (out of a black hole) and he would waltz in (pardon the pun) in Copeland. You are as wrong about this as you are about almost everything else. Its quite endearing, really  Frankly he'll get more mileage out of having been a better-than-middling dancer on TV than for his role as Shadow Chancellor.. I would give him two or three percentage points worth from it. Frankly your party will need all the percentage points it can get... Put up a union hack who can't tango to save his life.. see if I care..! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 15:34:34 GMT
Goering only wanted to avoid a war with Great Britain, hecertainly had no problem with invading countries. Alfred Jodl was the general at the centre of planning the invasion of Poland, Holland, Belgium and Norway - he gave the orders for the invasions. Wilhelm Keitel was, from 1938, the effective War Minister in Hitler's cabinet, and was intricately involved in the invasion and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia (he was, for a brief time, military governor of the Sudetenland). Your premise is totally wrong, Ribbentrop was not the only one involved in the decision to go to war. Keitel and Jodl were professional soldiers who had no say whatsoever in the political decision to invade other countries. The General Staffs of all states act as directed by their political leaders but in no sense can they be said to 'will' the decision to invade. The same could be said of the British and American Staff officers involved in planning the attack on Iraq . They drew up the plans as ordered - but the decision to invade did not belong to them. The conviction of Jodl is now widely seen as a miscarriage of justice. Moreover, he was not involved in the plans to invade Poland in that he was not recalled from Austria to Berlin to work as Chief of Staff Operations until the last week of August 1939. By that time the die was cast. You misunderstand, I was responding to your original post which refers to "Planning for War". Professional soldiers were certainly involved in the planning, once the decision has been made. The 44th Division, of which Jodl was head, played a key role in the invasion of Poland, so it seems unlikely in the extreme that he wasn't involved in the initial planning, once the decision has been made. Before his descent into complete unreality, Hitler worked closely with his military staff. As for Keitel, he was the most eager of Hitler's senior generals to follow the Fuhrer's, and was certainly part of the planning. That was my point. I recognise that Jodl was posthumously exonerated as a war criminal, but that wasn't my point. |
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Post by justin124 on Dec 22, 2016 15:35:04 GMT
That is just plain ignorant. Of the Nazis tried at Nuremberg only Ribbentrop had any involvement in the decision to launch a war, Goering certainly did not want a war and made some effort to avoid it. Who else of the defendants would you suggest was involved? Yes. That is my besetting sin. I know it. Ignorance. Dreadful thing...Ignorance. I grieve over it these long winter evenings in patient study of improving works. Doesn't seem to help! Still get it all wrong and see these chappies like von Ribbentrop and politician fellow Chamberlain I think it was? Do you know, I believe it was actually our chap that declared the war? Whereas von Ribbentrop (a charming man and family friend on my Mother's side......Stayed with them in Staffs quite often) was every inch the diplomat and tried to talk that Hitler fellow out of it. Frightful bounder Hitler you know. He was rude and pushy, injecting drug taker and even a vegetarian! Need I say more? Wouldn't be at all surprised if the war wasn't a bit of his fault really? He was just the sort you know. Lower class oik and only a corporal in the first show. It is generally accepted that Ribbentrop did seek to egg Hitler on as Foreign Minister in the run-up to war in 1939. The military leaders did not want war and neither did Goering - nor indeed Goebbels. |
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Post by justin124 on Dec 22, 2016 15:38:23 GMT
Keitel and Jodl were professional soldiers who had no say whatsoever in the political decision to invade other countries. The General Staffs of all states act as directed by their political leaders but in no sense can they be said to 'will' the decision to invade. The same could be said of the British and American Staff officers involved in planning the attack on Iraq . They drew up the plans as ordered - but the decision to invade did not belong to them. The conviction of Jodl is now widely seen as a miscarriage of justice. Moreover, he was not involved in the plans to invade Poland in that he was not recalled from Austria to Berlin to work as Chief of Staff Operations until the last week of August 1939. By that time the die was cast. You misunderstand, I was responding to your original post which refers to "Planning for War". Professional soldiers were certainly involved in the planning, once the decision has been made. The 44th Division, of which Jodl was head, played a key role in the invasion of Poland, so it seems unlikely in the extreme that he wasn't involved in the initial planning, once the decision has been made. Before his descent into complete unreality, Hitler worked closely with his military staff. As for Keitel, he was the most eager of Hitler's senior generals to follow the Fuhrer's, and was certainly part of the planning. That was my point. I recognise that Jodl was posthumously exonerated as a war criminal, but that wasn't my point. But my earlier comment related to 'the decision to go to war' Jodl and Keitel took no part in that. Moreover , the drawing up plans was part of their roles - indeed many plans will have been prepared which were never implemented. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 15:46:39 GMT
You misunderstand, I was responding to your original post which refers to "Planning for War". Professional soldiers were certainly involved in the planning, once the decision has been made. The 44th Division, of which Jodl was head, played a key role in the invasion of Poland, so it seems unlikely in the extreme that he wasn't involved in the initial planning, once the decision has been made. Before his descent into complete unreality, Hitler worked closely with his military staff. As for Keitel, he was the most eager of Hitler's senior generals to follow the Fuhrer's, and was certainly part of the planning. That was my point. I recognise that Jodl was posthumously exonerated as a war criminal, but that wasn't my point. But my earlier comment related to 'the decision to go to war' Jodl and Keitel took no part in that. Moreover , the drawing up plans was part of their roles - indeed many plans will have been prepared which were never implemented. About this, we can only conjecture, though Jodl seems unlikely to be part of any decisions, Keitel's role has always been less clear. Professional soldiering doesn't exclude personal support and enthusiasm and Keitel,as I have already said, was effectively the War Minister from 4th February 1938. |
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msc
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Post by msc on Dec 22, 2016 15:48:26 GMT
This is one of the only forums I know which can go from Jamie Reed to Alfred Jodl in the one topic in 24 hours via Strictly. Impressive.
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Post by justin124 on Dec 22, 2016 15:49:21 GMT
But my earlier comment related to 'the decision to go to war' Jodl and Keitel took no part in that. Moreover , the drawing up plans was part of their roles - indeed many plans will have been prepared which were never implemented. About this, we can only conjecture, though Jodl seems unlikely to be part of any decisions, Keitel's role has always been less clear. Professional soldiering doesn't exclude personal support and enthusiasm and Keitel,as I have already said, was effectively the War Minister from 4th February 1938. But that position did not amount to anything - and the Cabinet never met.Professional senior officers were also not permitted to join the Nazi Party. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 15:49:43 GMT
This is one of the only forums I know which can go from Jamie Reed to Alfred Jodl in the one topic in 24 hours via Strictly. Impressive. The sign of a restless mind. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 15:52:38 GMT
About this, we can only conjecture, though Jodl seems unlikely to be part of any decisions, Keitel's role has always been less clear. Professional soldiering doesn't exclude personal support and enthusiasm and Keitel,as I have already said, was effectively the War Minister from 4th February 1938. But that position did not amount to anything - and the Cabinet never met. True, but Keitel certainly met regularly with Hitler and, as the head of Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, he was a crucial figure. Anyway, unless they pick a complete numpty, Labour to hold Copeland. |
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Post by justin124 on Dec 22, 2016 15:55:32 GMT
I expect a Labour hold too.
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 22, 2016 15:56:37 GMT
No. Quite right Justin. The peace-loving Germans were all quite against war and Hitler did not like the idea much. Correct. He had to be egged on to do it against his better nature by the firebrand and sole cause of the war Joachim von Ribbentrop. And Tony Blair really was worse than all of them except for nasty Uncle Ulrich. Agreed. After all it is Christmas. Let the Lords of Misrule have play.
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Post by justin124 on Dec 22, 2016 16:01:55 GMT
No. Quite right Justin. The peace-loving Germans were all quite against war and Hitler did not like the idea much. Correct. He had to be egged on to do it against his better nature by the firebrand and sole cause of the war Joachim von Ribbentrop. And Tony Blair really was worse than all of them except for nasty Uncle Ulrich. Agreed. After all it is Christmas. Let the Lords of Misrule have play. Quite so. |
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Post by David Ashforth on Dec 22, 2016 16:33:39 GMT
Blair or Balls in this seat? I'd say now, right here, that such a thing will not happen. Do people still spread rumours about Mili-D, or have they returned to their senses? |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 22, 2016 16:53:53 GMT
This is one of the only forums I know which can go from Jamie Reed to Alfred Jodl in the one topic in 24 hours via Strictly. Impressive. It's the main reason we all stay here  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 17:23:58 GMT
Ditto Liverpool Walton for the other likely by-election this term.... Only if the Boundary changes are approved! They will be approved. |
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Post by justin124 on Dec 22, 2016 18:42:23 GMT
Only if the Boundary changes are approved! They will be approved. A senior Tory has stated there is a 60% chance of the Boundary changes NOT happening. There are known to be Tory rebels on this issue - as there were in the last Parliament - and with the Government's majority down to 10 very few are needed to scupper them. Strong rumours that we will see a by-election in Thanet South which the Tories would be likely to lose so eroding their majority further to 8. By the time a vote is due in Autumn 2018 we could be looking at a majority of 6. What makes you so confident? |
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Post by AdminSTB on Dec 22, 2016 18:54:45 GMT
Labour have held this seat as has been indicated since 1935, but rarely with a great degree of comfort. The popularity of Jack Cunningham was certainly a factor in maintaining this throughout the 1980s. The choice of candidate is crucial in current circumstances for this to continue - if Labour gets this right I cannot see us losing the seat. Get it wrong and I would see at least an even chance of a Tory gain. Echoes there of Crewe and Nantwich and Gwyneth Dunwoody (Labour "gain" in 1983). |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 22, 2016 19:19:37 GMT
That is just plain ignorant. Of the Nazis tried at Nuremberg only Ribbentrop had any involvement in the decision to launch a war, Goering certainly did not want a war and made some effort to avoid it. Who else of the defendants would you suggest was involved? Yes. That is my besetting sin. I know it. Ignorance. Dreadful thing...Ignorance. I grieve over it these long winter evenings in patient study of improving works. Doesn't seem to help! Still get it all wrong and see these chappies like von Ribbentrop and politician fellow Chamberlain I think it was? Do you know, I believe it was actually our chap that declared the war? Whereas von Ribbentrop (a charming man and family friend on my Mother's side......Stayed with them in Staffs quite often) was every inch the diplomat and tried to talk that Hitler fellow out of it. Frightful bounder Hitler you know. He was rude and pushy, injecting drug taker and even a vegetarian! Need I say more? Wouldn't be at all surprised if the war wasn't a bit of his fault really? He was just the sort you know. Lower class oik and only a corporal in the first show. Pedant alert. He wasn't. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 22, 2016 19:23:45 GMT
This is one of the only forums I know which can go from Jamie Reed to Alfred Jodl in the one topic in 24 hours via Strictly. Impressive. Further pedant alert. "One of the only" is worse than "begging the question". It makes no sense. It can be: "the only" "one of only a few" "one of only six" [or any other specific number] it cannot be: "one of the only" Thank you. (But I agree with your substantive point.) |
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Post by Andrew_S on Dec 22, 2016 19:54:57 GMT
Copeland registered the lowest Alliance share of the vote in England in 1987 with 9.1%, and the 11th lowest in the UK:
Copeland: 9.1%
Blaenau Gwent: 8.9%
Rhondda: 8.3%
Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney: 8.0%
Motherwell North: 8.0%
Glasgow Springburn: 7.9%
Angus East: 7.8%
Glasgow Provan: 7.2%
Ynys Mon: 6.7%
Caernarfon: 5.9%
Dundee East: 4.6%
Edit: I've added Caernarfon to the list.
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