Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 11:25:19 GMT
Interesting statistic for Corbynistas:
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 2, 2016 11:26:13 GMT
LDs now clearly identified as the new enemy for all of us. They are the party to stall and to resist. Don't let the momentum get under way or who knows what result for any of us? They are now clearly identified as the Anti-Brexit and even Anti-Democratic party, the party who wish to overturn Brexit by any means. We must use every opportunity to leaflet that to every household especially in those strongly Brexit seats. New phase of the War. You know Carlton, rhetoric like that is a big cause of the Remainer pushback. and others are perfectly entitled to that view. It seems logical enough from his standpoint. (Though we will naturally counter-argue that the party that has just won a by-election on a very decent turn-out with more than 50% of the vote is not anti-democratic.) But you are also right in that portraying the LDs as the clear anti-Brexit party, and as a party which poses a genuine threat to all the others, as the party which UKIP above all others identifies as their chief enemy, is pretty much exactly what any LD PRstrategist would want to hear. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,931
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 2, 2016 11:32:08 GMT
Interesting statistic for Corbynistas: Richmond has long had a remarkably high LP membership considering what a long term electoral desert it is for them. Members have certainly backed the LibDem candidate in previous GEs, as long as they don't make a song and dance about it party HQ seemed content to turn a blind eye. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 11:32:56 GMT
You know Carlton, rhetoric like that is a big cause of the Remainer pushback. Well get used to it as plenty more where that came from..............And you ain't seen nothing yet to what we will do if you attempt to stall our hard Brexit. Then it might get very bloody indeed? But that wasn't what was voted for - quite clearly. You voted for 'hard brexit', but many who voted Leave didn't. Given there were people saying that we could leave and stay in the single market thats not surprising. What is needed is for the Government to say clearly what their ideal outcome is - and 'having your cake and eat it' isn;t feasible or convincing. At the end of the process its then where there are likely to be very conflicted opinions as to whether what has been proposed is satisfactory or not - and of course this is the problem with voting for something ie: leaving the EU, without having a clue about what was on offer instead |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 11:33:40 GMT
Interesting statistic for Corbynistas: Pretty obvious that some of them voted LibDem as a means of getting rid of Goldsmith. Can't see what it has to do with Corbyn! In a FPTP system its been part of the political scene for years, particularly in seats like this |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 11:35:23 GMT
Well get used to it as plenty more where that came from..............And you ain't seen nothing yet to what we will do if you attempt to stall our hard Brexit. Then it might get very bloody indeed? Your hard Brexit. Not mine. Understood Arthur. But one must put one's case and fight one's fight. |
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bigfatron
Lib Dem
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Post by bigfatron on Dec 2, 2016 11:35:52 GMT
The guy who drives my local taxi voted Brexit to 'get the Pakis out' - would that be part of a 'hard Brexit'?
Whatever happens an awful lot of people are going to be disappointed, and you will probably be one of them...
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 2, 2016 11:35:53 GMT
Interesting statistic for Corbynistas: Pretty obvious that some of them voted LibDem as a means of getting rid of Goldsmith. Can't see what it has to do with Corbyn! In a FPTP system its been part of the political scene for years, particularly in seats like this i wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some Labour party members in Richmond who have never voted Labour in a general election! |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 11:37:40 GMT
Pretty obvious that some of them voted LibDem as a means of getting rid of Goldsmith. Can't see what it has to do with Corbyn! In a FPTP system its been part of the political scene for years, particularly in seats like this i wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some Labour party members in Richmond who have never voted Labour in a general election! Me neither. I have a friend in Sutton who has voted LibDem for years |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 11:38:58 GMT
You know Carlton, rhetoric like that is a big cause of the Remainer pushback. and others are perfectly entitled to that view. It seems logical enough from his standpoint. (Though we will naturally counter-argue that the party that has just won a by-election on a very decent turn-out with more than 50% of the vote is not anti-democratic.) But you are also right in that portraying the LDs as the clear anti-Brexit party, and as a party which poses a genuine threat to all the others, as the party which UKIP above all others identifies as their chief enemy, is pretty much exactly what any LD PRstrategist would want to hear. That is very sound Adam. We may find mutual advantage in attacking each other and at the same time flaking off chunks from each side of Labour? |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,931
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 2, 2016 11:41:25 GMT
The above conversation demonstrates why we should be leery of the "Labour's result was down to its Brexit stance" HOT TAKE which now seems to be finding favour with some. Which is not to deny that a bit more clarity on this would be welcome.....
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 11:41:53 GMT
Well get used to it as plenty more where that came from..............And you ain't seen nothing yet to what we will do if you attempt to stall our hard Brexit. Then it might get very bloody indeed? But that wasn't what was voted for - quite clearly. You voted for 'hard brexit', but many who voted Leave didn't. Given there were people saying that we could leave and stay in the single market thats not surprising. What is needed is for the Government to say clearly what their ideal outcome is - and 'having your cake and eat it' isn;t feasible or convincing. At the end of the process its then where there are likely to be very conflicted opinions as to whether what has been proposed is satisfactory or not - and of course this is the problem with voting for something ie: leaving the EU, without having a clue about what was on offer instead But Mike,if it isn't Hard Brexit it was not worth doing at all. Far better to have built alliances to change the nature, the contribution and the free movement from inside. |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 11:44:35 GMT
The guy who drives my local taxi voted Brexit to 'get the Pakis out' - would that be part of a 'hard Brexit'? Whatever happens an awful lot of people are going to be disappointed, and you will probably be one of them... Correct. I am usually disappointed by politics, but this year has been a bit of an exception. Beware of the backlash if we Hard Cases are thwarted! |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on Dec 2, 2016 11:47:09 GMT
It is really strange to see people saying tgat Zac shot himself in the foot or made a disasterous decision. Fuck me....no wonder politicians are such liars. The public cry out for an MP that does what he says he will. Then, when they get one they vote him out. Zac promised to resign and fight a by election over Heathrow and he did. What a shame more MPs dont have his honesty and integrity What he did was the opposite of demonstrating honest and integrity. Running as an independent with the obvious intent of quickly retaking the Tory whip was the height of dishonesty. He deserved to lose and I am glad he did. |
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Dec 2, 2016 11:48:08 GMT
Your hard Brexit. Not mine. Understood Arthur. But one must put one's case and fight one's fight. If you make it bloody, you have lost the argument. |
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Dec 2, 2016 11:50:21 GMT
Beware of the backlash if we Hard Cases are thwarted! You are going to be thwarted because you have taken a position that is so monumentally ridiculous that you have disqualified yourself from serious consideration. No remotely responsible government can do something that would be economically catastrophic for the country. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 11:59:10 GMT
But that wasn't what was voted for - quite clearly. You voted for 'hard brexit', but many who voted Leave didn't. Given there were people saying that we could leave and stay in the single market thats not surprising. What is needed is for the Government to say clearly what their ideal outcome is - and 'having your cake and eat it' isn;t feasible or convincing. At the end of the process its then where there are likely to be very conflicted opinions as to whether what has been proposed is satisfactory or not - and of course this is the problem with voting for something ie: leaving the EU, without having a clue about what was on offer instead But Mike,if it isn't Hard Brexit it was not worth doing at all. Far better to have built alliances to change the nature, the contribution and the free movement from inside. I agree, but that wasn't what the Leave campaign was saying. Its messages were largely a mixture of scaremoingering about Turkey joining the EU , more money to spend on the NHS, and a very unclear message about what it weould mean in any practical sense to leave the EU. There were a number of leavers who said very clearly that they did want to stay in the single market and until the Government makes it clear what they want these arguments will continue. I definitely don;t think that all Leave voters thought that leaving the single market was on the cards. Indeed, there have been Leavers here openly advocating EEA membership as the alternative. That means free movement - and if we wanted to renegotiate that it would have been far better to stay in. There is absolutely no way that this is going to be relaxed for a country on its way out. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 12:00:23 GMT
The guy who drives my local taxi voted Brexit to 'get the Pakis out' - would that be part of a 'hard Brexit'? Whatever happens an awful lot of people are going to be disappointed, and you will probably be one of them... Correct. I am usually disappointed by politics, but this year has been a bit of an exception. Beware of the backlash if we Hard Cases are thwarted! Which you almost inevitably will be. Thats when you will get the split in the Tory party, which will enable the long-overdue split in the Labour party, and the realignment British politics needs |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 12:04:01 GMT
Beware of the backlash if we Hard Cases are thwarted! You are going to be thwarted because you have taken a position that is so monumentally ridiculous that you have disqualified yourself from serious consideration. No remotely responsible government can do something that would be economically catastrophic for the country. Problem is many of the hardline Leavers think that it won't be economically catastrophic and want an absolute break if we can't get a deal which enables us to retain some benefits without contribution or having to accept free movement. Other Leavers clearly don't think this is the case and will consider something which won't be acceptable to the hardliners a reasonable way forward. Its at that stage I can see there being significant political changes |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,931
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 2, 2016 12:08:11 GMT
Pretty obvious that some of them voted LibDem as a means of getting rid of Goldsmith. Can't see what it has to do with Corbyn! In a FPTP system its been part of the political scene for years, particularly in seats like this i wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some Labour party members in Richmond who have never voted Labour in a general election! I certainly wouldn't be surprised if there are long standing members who voted Labour at a GE for the first time only last year. |
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