Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,846 
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Post by Crimson King on Dec 2, 2016 9:17:16 GMT
I thought the odd thing was resigning and standing again. I can see the logic in saying that he felt so strongly about Heathrow that he would leave the Tories if they approved it, and that he might feel that in those circumstances he should resign his seat, that would be a threat to the party and if carried through would demonstrate honesty. But resigning, standing again with party support and everyone knowing he would rejoin and leave the situation exactly as it was before just seemed daft
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 9:32:44 GMT
There are some very excitable Liberal Democrats on twitter. I think they need to calm down, this by election was a freak. Now if they won Sleaford; that would be cause to get very excited....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 9:38:05 GMT
I thought the odd thing was resigning and standing again. I can see the logic in saying that he felt so strongly about Heathrow that he would leave the Tories if they approved it, and that he might feel that in those circumstances he should resign his seat, that would be a threat to the party and if carried through would demonstrate honesty. But resigning, standing again with party support and everyone knowing he would rejoin and leave the situation exactly as it was before just seemed daft I agree. I don't criticise Goldsmith for doing what he said he would do, but for making the pledge in the first place. The damage he has done through this quixotic episode is considerable. In the case of his own political career and standing, already damaged, it is terminal. He has also harmed the Conservative Party and the cause of leaving the EU; and even the campaign against Heathrow expansion has not exactly been helped. There seems to be plenty of blame to go around: the Conservative Party doesn't seem to have pulled out all the stops to help Goldsmith, however reluctantly, even though that would have been in their interests. I mentioned recently I had heard rumours from the campaign that all was not well. This is part of what I was told - It's all about Brexit and having an excuse after Thursday's by-election to delay/stop etc. Article 50. Zac and the LibDem candidate both agree on Heathrow and the 3rd runway, so this is their main, if not only, distinguishing feature.
The Conservatives on the other hand are useless, if not malevolent, w*nk*rs. Zac cannot run his campaign out of the Richmond Conservative Offices for obvious reasons, so he's had to personally hire somewhere else. That's understandable, but worse than that [...]
As [...], we both had to go out of our way to try and make contact with Zac's campaign. We heard nothing about it either from CCO or Richmond Park Conservative constituency. A friend of ours in Twickenham was asked/'told' not to attend. Thankfully, she ignored that advice. The merry few who are helping Zac in Richmond are running madly around the place trying to do something. Of course, it doesn't help when they keep Zac's Campaign Headquarter's address secret because 'we don't want to attract nutters'. (I've got news for them: Welcome to politics. Take what help you can get). But then, what do you expect [...]?
[...] thought that Zac could lose this. [...] The atmosphere on the street, what we could tell of it, wasn't good. However, those who have done canvassing say it's bad. In fairness, the ones running around the address-less campaign office are also pulling no punches and are saying it's grim on the doorstep. |
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Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,846
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Post by Crimson King on Dec 2, 2016 9:47:12 GMT
Someone will know - did he promise to resign and fight a by election, or just to resign?
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Post by slicesofjim on Dec 2, 2016 9:55:19 GMT
Bloody hell Carlton, you've had everything else this year, give us a bit of somethimg to celebrate this year. I won't appeal to christmas, but for samhain! There you go Jim! Feel better now? Are you sure this is actually in your best interest? Ah well! Suit yourself. Yes thanks! Goldsmith is punished and the chances of hard Brexit are diminished, however slightly. I am available for hire as a 'by-election lucky charm' to oust Tory MPs, though this offer only applies to seats worth visiting... |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 9:57:54 GMT
I thought this by-election was a stunt, and the result was a deserved one.
As for the EU, the issue remains that we still haven't a clue what the Government actually want as an outcome - and until we do the same sort of discussions are going to continue.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Dec 2, 2016 10:00:49 GMT
There you go Jim! Feel better now? Are you sure this is actually in your best interest? Ah well! Suit yourself. Yes thanks! Goldsmith is punished and the chances of hard Brexit are diminished, however slightly. I am available for hire as a 'by-election lucky charm' to oust Tory MPs, though this offer only applies to seats worth visiting... I think some of the Labour supporters crowing about this ought to consider that any Lib Dem revival based being anti-Brexit is likely to eat into their support as much, or more than, any other party. There's a serious risk of Labour facing a pincer movement with UKIP taking support from one part of the traditional Labour coalition and the Lib Dems now in a position to take from another (essentially that part which they nabbed for a while from 2003-2010) |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 10:01:07 GMT
It is really strange to see people saying tgat Zac shot himself in the foot or made a disasterous decision. Fuck me....no wonder politicians are such liars. The public cry out for an MP that does what he says he will. Then, when they get one they vote him out. Zac promised to resign and fight a by election over Heathrow and he did. What a shame more MPs dont have his honesty and integrity But his former party then should have fought the election with a Conservative candidate willing to back the Government on Heathrow. Under those circumstances the by-election would have had a purpose and it would have not appeared to be a charade with the Tories clearly backing Goldsmith despite his supposed apostasy. Because of that the whole thing looked like a con, and just about everyone thought that Goldsmith would be back in the Tory party within weeks. |
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Post by slicesofjim on Dec 2, 2016 10:07:05 GMT
Yes thanks! Goldsmith is punished and the chances of hard Brexit are diminished, however slightly. I am available for hire as a 'by-election lucky charm' to oust Tory MPs, though this offer only applies to seats worth visiting... I think some of the Labour supporters crowing about this ought to consider that any Lib Dem revival based being anti-Brexit is likely to eat into their support as much, or more than, any other party. There's a serious risk of Labour facing a pincer movement with UKIP taking support from one part of the traditional Labour coalition and the Lib Dems now in a position to take from another (essentially that part which they nabbed for a while from 2003-2010) Only if large parts of the country were like Richmond, which they're not. Plus, the Lib Dems and Labour positions on Brexit aren't all that distant. As fpr the 'UKIP threat', hmm, we'll see shall we. |
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Post by andrew111 on Dec 2, 2016 10:24:33 GMT
I think some of the Labour supporters crowing about this ought to consider that any Lib Dem revival based being anti-Brexit is likely to eat into their support as much, or more than, any other party. There's a serious risk of Labour facing a pincer movement with UKIP taking support from one part of the traditional Labour coalition and the Lib Dems now in a position to take from another (essentially that part which they nabbed for a while from 2003-2010) Only if large parts of the country were like Richmond, which they're not. Plus, the Lib Dems and Labour positions on Brexit aren't all that distant. As fpr the 'UKIP threat', hmm, we'll see shall we. The lib dem and labour positions are becoming increasingly different as Labour worry about losing votes to UKIP or the Tories over immigration.. as far as I can see the Labour position is now against the single market if it means freedom of movement, and against another referendum, while the Lib Dem position is that Remain is still the best result (which means keeping freedom of movement, obviously) and that they will vote against article 50 unless it is linked with a second referendum with Remain as an option I think there is a significant part of the Labour support base which agrees with the Lib Dem position here. As said above, what happened between 2010 and 2015 is that both Tories and Labour lost votes to UKIP and gained them from Lib Dem. If that trend were to reverse in terms of centrist Tory and Labour voters returning to lib Dem (as just happened in Richmond), while UKIP grow as well, we could enter unknown territory in British politics with two protest parties... (and the Greens, who are not going away of course, and the SNP...) |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Dec 2, 2016 10:24:51 GMT
I think some of the Labour supporters crowing about this ought to consider that any Lib Dem revival based being anti-Brexit is likely to eat into their support as much, or more than, any other party. There's a serious risk of Labour facing a pincer movement with UKIP taking support from one part of the traditional Labour coalition and the Lib Dems now in a position to take from another (essentially that part which they nabbed for a while from 2003-2010) Only if large parts of the country were like Richmond, which they're not. Plus, the Lib Dems and Labour positions on Brexit aren't all that distant. As fpr the 'UKIP threat', hmm, we'll see shall we. Well certainly there are more Labour held areas where UKIP pose a threat to their vote than there are where the Lib Dems are a threat, but increasingly Labour are dependent on an urban middle class vote and any Lib Dem revival that is based in that demographic has the potential to hurt Labour, whether that be directly in areas like Cambridge or Cardiff Central or indirectly where a loss of some of that vote could let in the Conservatives. Of course the observation that Richmond is hardly a typical area should be borne in mind by anyone trying to draw conclusions of any kind about this result |
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 2, 2016 10:24:58 GMT
There are some very excitable Liberal Democrats on twitter. I think they need to calm down, this by election was a freak. Now if they won Sleaford; that would be cause to get very excited.... First time I have ever accorded with Denktas. The real danger is Tim Farron getting reinforced in his Cyclopean view of the political landscape and banging on about Brexit in Sleaford or Montgomeryshire or Somerset. Richmond is an "elites" fiefdom... far more so than Witney, for example. Must have one of the highest densities of Polish nannies in the country if such things were ever measured.. |
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Post by andrew111 on Dec 2, 2016 10:37:21 GMT
That was his catastrophic misjudgment. It was already clear at the time of the general election in May 2015 that he was explicitly opposed to Heathrow expansion, so he had an unambiguous mandate for that position in 2015. It was an egotistical indulgence for him to think that he needed to get a mandate to get another mandate later on, as if the original mandate was not strong enough. You might be right. BUT....he said in 2015 that he would do it and he was as good as his word. I would rather have a man who does what he says than all of the forked-tongue wankers that sit in the HoC....and there are plenty of them Zac' problem was that he was very far out of touch with his constituents on Brexit. If he had voted Remain or indeed if Remain had won the referendum he would have been rewarded for keeping his word. As things are i think it was only that which kept his vote above 40%.. If this by-election had been caused by a vacancy, the Tories would have been crazy to put up a Leave voting candidate, I am sure you would agree? The other problem is that his clean image was sullied by the Mayoral campaign, and he was always on the defensive on that. Plus, as we see above, it is very hard to organise a parliamentary campaign from scratch without party support. |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 10:58:27 GMT
What a fool that man has been. Threw away London and now lost one of the safest seats in Britain through wilful stupidity and gross arrogance. And the Conservatives let him do it and stand as an independent thus cutting off the support of the full machine. What a Fred Karnos! They should have expelled him from the party and put up a bright young candidate to fight a strong Brexit and pro-Heathrow and right wing campaign with a view to him taking it back at the next GE. UKIP are as bad is losing the opportunity to campaign hard on Brexit and make a lot of points with the new leader on the by-election panel. This has been an utter disaster and people should be sacked over it on the party planning and campaigns side. Ooh so *this* is what I sounded like on referendum night.... Oh no Dok! You were much better than that. There was more drama and it mattered much more to you. This is a minor irritation on a very small scale in itself and does not signify that much, other than being a self-inflicted wound and an opening back for the LDs that they must have lusted for and there it was handed to them by a complete prat. I am over it already. But it did/does make me cross. These Etonians are well educated and probably rather nice people, but they lack common sense and a view of the broader picture. They are like me a bit too individualist and it is too much about them and their own narrow vision. |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 11:01:27 GMT
LDs now clearly identified as the new enemy for all of us. They are the party to stall and to resist. Don't let the momentum get under way or who knows what result for any of us? They are now clearly identified as the Anti-Brexit and even Anti-Democratic party, the party who wish to overturn Brexit by any means. We must use every opportunity to leaflet that to every household especially in those strongly Brexit seats. New phase of the War. You know Carlton, rhetoric like that is a big cause of the Remainer pushback. Well get used to it as plenty more where that came from..............And you ain't seen nothing yet to what we will do if you attempt to stall our hard Brexit. Then it might get very bloody indeed? |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 2, 2016 11:14:47 GMT
My impression is that Zac was hoping to achieve a ringing endorsement from voters in Richmond Park to avoid deselection. That gamble didn't pay off. I don't think he was ever under any threat of deselection. The local Conservative Association loved him because of his local activism, frequent presence at community and party events, and his willingness to use his personal money to subsidise Conservative Party campaigns. Talking of his local presence, what we saw ought to put a shot across the bows of anyone who wants to argue that an MP being seen at every local fete and jumble sale is going to translate into a firm electoral base. |
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Dec 2, 2016 11:15:38 GMT
You know Carlton, rhetoric like that is a big cause of the Remainer pushback. Well get used to it as plenty more where that came from..............And you ain't seen nothing yet to what we will do if you attempt to stall our hard Brexit. Then it might get very bloody indeed? Your hard Brexit. Not mine. |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 11:17:10 GMT
It is really strange to see people saying tgat Zac shot himself in the foot or made a disasterous decision. Fuck me....no wonder politicians are such liars. The public cry out for an MP that does what he says he will. Then, when they get one they vote him out. Zac promised to resign and fight a by election over Heathrow and he did. What a shame more MPs dont have his honesty and integrity That was his catastrophic misjudgment. It was already clear at the time of the general election in May 2015 that he was explicitly opposed to Heathrow expansion, so he had an unambiguous mandate for that position in 2015. It was an egotistical indulgence for him to think that he needed to get a mandate to get another mandate later on, as if the original mandate was not strong enough. And that John is a full and complete answer to his apologists such as AC. He is very much not to be praised for his stupid actions but to pointed at and laughed at as many must be doing today. Your reasoning is faultless. He has wasted a good deal of public money to achieve nothing (all candidates on same side of the issue) no Conservative or UKIP candidates in play, no pro-Heathrow candidate and thus no contest. The arrogant fool thought he would grandstand to victory on a wave of goodwill and adulation for doing his party down and damaging one of their policies. wrong! Sensible people faced with a choice opted for a real opponent to the Government so as to show displeasure over Heathrow and Brexit. Why would they not? Why was he too dim to see that? He is so like Cameron and the Referendum. All emotion and no thinking. All lofty assumption and no calculation. people like him do make me very angry. He deserves no praise and no sympathy. He got what he richly deserved and he has set back the cause of the right by quite a deal. Prat. But....Defeated prat. Lesson to them all. |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 2, 2016 11:19:53 GMT
Everyone blames Goldsmith, but why no one blames May for the by-election? She knew approving Heathrow would cause a by-election, after all. Oh! Right Max! You want another Cameron who defers decisions out into the long grass because they are 'difficult'. You want the wrong decision made to save one by-election. Let's hope you are never in charge. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2016 11:25:08 GMT
Only if large parts of the country were like Richmond, which they're not. Plus, the Lib Dems and Labour positions on Brexit aren't all that distant. As fpr the 'UKIP threat', hmm, we'll see shall we. The lib dem and labour positions are becoming increasingly different as Labour worry about losing votes to UKIP or the Tories over immigration.. as far as I can see the Labour position is now against the single market if it means freedom of movement, and against another referendum, while the Lib Dem position is that Remain is still the best result (which means keeping freedom of movement, obviously) and that they will vote against article 50 unless it is linked with a second referendum with Remain as an option I think there is a significant part of the Labour support base which agrees with the Lib Dem position here. As said above, what happened between 2010 and 2015 is that both Tories and Labour lost votes to UKIP and gained them from Lib Dem. If that trend were to reverse in terms of centrist Tory and Labour voters returning to lib Dem (as just happened in Richmond), while UKIP grow as well, we could enter unknown territory in British politics with two protest parties... (and the Greens, who are not going away of course, and the SNP...) I don't think there is really a case to not trigger Article 50 given the referendum but the issue is then what happens once the 'deal' is revealed. Until the Government actually say what they want to happen and what their aim is then who knows what will happen? |
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