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Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 8, 2017 17:52:54 GMT
Maybe the Surinamese are included in the Dutch nationals as it was Ducth until 1975 and probably most of them are 2nd or 3rd generation.
Somalians seem to top this list everywhere they go..
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Post by Antiochian on Feb 8, 2017 18:13:10 GMT
Some interesting figures on Dutch welfare "participants" that I cam across. No wonder they are pissed off.  That graph could have come from a Lib Dem leaflet. Oh dear! One for Darryl Huff methinks. Remainer LibDems wouldn't dare use that graph.... just think... when they all become Dutch citizens they can move over here.. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 18:23:27 GMT
Maybe the Surinamese are included in the Dutch nationals as it was Ducth until 1975 and probably most of them are 2nd or 3rd generation. Somalians seem to top this list everywhere they go.. Yes, and a lot of the Indonesians are Moluccans, who are nearly all Dutch citizens. This ofc also applies to immigrants from the Netherlands Antilles. |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Feb 8, 2017 19:02:15 GMT
That graph could have come from a Lib Dem leaflet. Oh dear! One for Darryl Huff methinks. Remainer LibDems wouldn't dare use that graph.... just think... when they all become Dutch citizens they can move over here.. Nor would we be caught dead using bars whose length was proportional to the underlying figures. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,020
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 8, 2017 19:06:42 GMT
Some interesting figures on Dutch welfare "participants" that I cam across. No wonder they are pissed off. The vast majority of these will be ex-refugees (barring Morocco and Turkey) and in my understanding is that, like here, the desire is to become citizens as soon as possible for ex-refugees. In which case the figures are for people who are either still refugees or not long been refugees, hardly the most employable/productive individuals. For Somalis in particular, coming from a country that has had no functioning government including education system for the last quarter of a century probably doesn't help... |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Feb 8, 2017 19:53:53 GMT
Or like I have noticed in France or in rural Quebec, a big reason why so many Mulism immigrants are on welfare is than most employers, at equal abilities, will pick the person with a Western name instead of the person with a Muslim name (which is why I think anonymous resumes should be mandatory by law).
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Feb 8, 2017 20:11:12 GMT
That graph could have come from a Lib Dem leaflet. Oh dear! One for Darryl Huff methinks. Well, depending how you read it, it adds up to well over 100% but I therefore presumed that to mean the % of XYZ's claiming benefits. My interpretation was that it is the percentage of each nationality in the benefit system. It should be no surprise that most of the Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, Iranians, Somalis etc are refugees and may not be permitted to work. I would like to see numbers rather than percentages. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 8, 2017 23:24:41 GMT
I have to say, a few experiences in the backstreets of Rotterdam, including an attempted mugging, did make me think that the Netherlands has lost control of its big cities in parts. Far worse than other places I've been bar maybe Paris, Brussels or the grim satellites of Lille (or Manchester!)
Obviously that's anecdotal but I was quite shaken by what I experienced and saw in cities that I'd visited many times before and felt safe in. I wasn't really surprised that the PVV and the new hardline version of the VVD were suddenly popular.
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Feb 8, 2017 23:33:41 GMT
I have to say, a few experiences in the backstreets of Rotterdam, including an attempted mugging, did make me think that the Netherlands has lost control of its big cities in parts. Far worse than other places I've been bar maybe Paris, Brussels or the grim satellites of Lille (or Manchester!) Obviously that's anecdotal but I was quite shaken by what I experienced and saw in cities that I'd visited many times before and felt safe in. I wasn't really surprised that the PVV and the new hardline version of the VVD were suddenly popular. I could. I could be wrong, but I have the impression that Rotterdam is the 'worst' of the main Dutch cities. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Feb 8, 2017 23:38:56 GMT
That graph could have come from a Lib Dem leaflet. Oh dear! One for Darryl Huff methinks. LibDems wouldn't dare use that graph.... just think... when they all become Dutch citizens they can move over here.. The only country on that list which relates to EU membership is Poland, and it says that Poles make up a lower proportion of welfare claimants than Dutch citizens. Letting in refugees from those other countries and allowing them to claim benefits is either entirely a domestic decision or relates to international conventions that go beyond Europe. I have to say, a few experiences in the backstreets of Rotterdam, including an attempted mugging, did make me think that the Netherlands has lost control of its big cities in parts. Far worse than other places I've been bar maybe Paris, Brussels or the grim satellites of Lille (or Manchester!) Obviously that's anecdotal but I was quite shaken by what I experienced and saw in cities that I'd visited many times before and felt safe in. I wasn't really surprised that the PVV and the new hardline version of the VVD were suddenly popular. This is also anecdotal, but in my experience this is not a new development. I was mugged both figuratively (by tourist traps) and literally (by a man who appeared to have come to the city from Africa, judging by his accent, English skills and skin colour) in Amsterdam as far back as 2002. |
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Feb 8, 2017 23:43:02 GMT
I have to say, a few experiences in the backstreets of Rotterdam, including an attempted mugging, did make me think that the Netherlands has lost control of its big cities in parts. Far worse than other places I've been bar maybe Paris, Brussels or the grim satellites of Lille (or Manchester!) Obviously that's anecdotal but I was quite shaken by what I experienced and saw in cities that I'd visited many times before and felt safe in. I wasn't really surprised that the PVV and the new hardline version of the VVD were suddenly popular. This is also anecdotal, but in my experience this is not a new development. I was mugged both figuratively (by tourist traps) and literally (by a man who appeared to have come to the city from Africa, judging by his accent, English skills and skin colour) in Amsterdam as far back as 2002. A slightly deranged-looking guy pulled a knife on me in a crowd in Amsterdam a number of years back. Thankfully a mate shoved me in the other direction and we got submerged by the people around us. It all happened so quickly that I didn't realise what was happening. It was my first day in the country as well! |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Feb 8, 2017 23:52:43 GMT
This is also anecdotal, but in my experience this is not a new development. I was mugged both figuratively (by tourist traps) and literally (by a man who appeared to have come to the city from Africa, judging by his accent, English skills and skin colour) in Amsterdam as far back as 2002. A slightly deranged-looking guy pulled a knife on me in a crowd in Amsterdam a number of years back. Thankfully a mate shoved me in the other direction and we got submerged by the people around us. It all happened so quickly that I didn't realise what was happening. It was my first day in the country as well! It was my second (and to this day, penultimate) day in the country, and a mugging took place despite the nearby crowds. Rather than being 'deranged', sadly this chap looked like he knew exactly what he was doing. My friend – and only travel companion on this occasion – claims that he had a gun, but I never saw or felt it. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 9, 2017 8:13:08 GMT
Maastricht and The Hague are pretty good too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 8:22:21 GMT
Maastricht and The Hague are pretty good too. Leiden is nice. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 9, 2017 8:47:25 GMT
Maastricht and The Hague are pretty good too. Leiden is nice. I must admit I'm not a fan, but it was a grey miserable day when I went. Delft is wonderful. Actually Rotterdam is quite good fun, just rough and occasionally a bit sinister. |
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mazuz
Conservative
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Post by mazuz on Feb 9, 2017 12:33:15 GMT
Big Dutch cities used to be much worse in the 80s and 90s. Especially Rotterdam has improved so much, mainly thanks to local party Leefbaar Rotterdam's tough-on-crime policies, smart housing policies, improvement of the public space and the use of CCTVs on the subway. There are still parts that aren't good, but while I haven't been to Manchester or any of the bad neighborhoods in Lille I can't imagine Rotterdam is worse, and if it is, then Lille and Manchester aren't actually that bad. I live in one of the three big Dutch cities (in a neighborhood with a very bad reputation) and spend much time in the other two and have never had a negative experience (though I'm sure that would change if I were to put on a kippa). Doesn't mean we shouldn't close our borders, but Dutch cities aren't as bad as they are portrayed here.
As for that one graph and some of the comments:
1. Surinamese are (mainly) two different groups: Creoles and Hindustanis. Creoles depend on welfare more often than Hindustanis (and vote for the PVV much less often).
2. All Surinamese Dutch and almost all people with an Indonesian background have Dutch citizenship, and in the latter category many have assimilated to the point where being Indonesian Dutch is about as relevant as being Irish American. Many are ethnically more Dutch than Indonesian in the first place since they're descendants of Dutch plantation owners/colonizers.
3. For mixed people of Indonesian and Dutch descent, the term "Indo" (or "Indisch") is used. There are almost no non-mixed peope of Indonesian descent in the Netherlands except for Moluccans, who identify as such and not as Indonesian. So no one really identifies as Indonesian the way people identify as Surinamese. No one would say "I'm Indonesian".
4. Antilleans are missing in this graph, and they are one of the most welfare-dependent communities in the Netherlands and highly overrepresented in the crime statistics (much more so than Surinamese), pretty much on par with Moroccans. Of course Somalis and Eritreans are more welfare-dependent and perhaps even more overrepresented when it comes to crime percentually-wise, but they are much smaller groups.
5. Don't know if the numbers are correct, but they may very well be, and yeah, this obviously affects people's views of immigration.
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mazuz
Conservative
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Post by mazuz on Feb 10, 2017 13:24:19 GMT
Funny: totally invisible VVD backbencher Ybeltje Berckmoes, not on the 2017 list, decided to go out with a bang. In an interview with BNR Nieuwsradio, she stated that "because of the big population growth in Africa and the Middle East, angry young men move here. That must end. It [Dutch vs. Arab culture] doesn't mix at all. I view this as a threat. The Netherlands is at risk of becoming some sort of Eurabia. We've been crushing each other's skulls for religious reasons for centuries. That's a no-brainer to me. Trump would say: it's a fact. Especially the Muslim faith is a violent faith."
Instead of ignoring Berckmoes' statements, VVD parliamentary group leader Zijlstra distanced himself from them and said that they "form an excellent explanation for the fact that Berckmoes is not on the VVD list", which is a pretty sick burn. However, it damaged his credentials as the supposed right-winger within the VVD, and Wilders replied that Zijlstra's response "forms an excellent explanation for the fact that the Netherlands continues to Islamize with the VVD at the helm."
Berckmoes has been an MP since 2011 and owes her seat to being the only VVD candidate in strong VVD region Noord-Holland-Noord. The VVD already sought to dump her in 2012 by giving her slot #39, but they suddenly won 41 seats and gave Berckmoes 4.5 more years in parliament.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 10, 2017 15:02:59 GMT
Ybeltje is an unusual name, is it a diminutive for something? (I ask because of the -tje ending)
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mazuz
Conservative
Posts: 155
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Post by mazuz on Feb 10, 2017 16:20:09 GMT
Ybeltje is an unusual name, is it a diminutive for something? (I ask because of the -tje ending) "Tje" is indeed a diminutive. While Ybeltje and the non-diminutive version, Ybel, are highly uncommon names (probably Frisian), the diminutive "tje" is pretty common for (often old-fashioned) female first names, some of which are popular with the upper-middle class again these days. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 10, 2017 21:43:05 GMT
Ybeltje is an unusual name, is it a diminutive for something? (I ask because of the -tje ending) "Tje" is indeed a diminutive. While Ybeltje and the non-diminutive version, Ybel, are highly uncommon names (probably Frisian), the diminutive "tje" is pretty common for (often old-fashioned) female first names, some of which are popular with the upper-middle class again these days. Thanks for that. Fascinating and under-appreciated language. And now Trijntje Oosterhuis's name suddenly makes more sense. |
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