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Post by Andrew_S on Oct 19, 2016 1:00:52 GMT
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Post by lennon on Nov 18, 2016 10:20:22 GMT
One of the more interesting European elections in my view due to the voting system.
Proportional Representation across the whole country, with no lower threshold means that it is possible to win a seat with under 1% of the vote at a national level. I would hope that the Dutch Pirates would be able to get a seat in such circumstances, but it's touch and go from I can see at the moment. Obviously the balance is getting enough young people in the cities out to vote Pirate to offset the relative dearth of voters in the much more conservative rural areas.
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Post by lennon on Nov 18, 2016 11:58:42 GMT
One of the more interesting European elections in my view due to the voting system. Proportional Representation across the whole country, with no lower threshold It really is a ridiculous system. The Dutch are generally a sensible lot with a tradition of compromise and pragmatism, but that system would lead to chaos in a lot of countries. I know - it says something about the Dutch people that even with such a system there is no genuine 'neo-nazi' party (Golden Dawn etc), not a 'Communist' party. There is also something about the coherance of the country that there is no 'North Holland Independance Party' or similar. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 13:39:42 GMT
It really is a ridiculous system. The Dutch are generally a sensible lot with a tradition of compromise and pragmatism, but that system would lead to chaos in a lot of countries. I know - it says something about the Dutch people that even with such a system there is no genuine 'neo-nazi' party (Golden Dawn etc), not a 'Communist' party. There is also something about the coherance of the country that there is no 'North Holland Independance Party' or similar. The Friesland Independence Party would be more logical, or one for the Catholic provinces. North Holland seceding from a country dominated by Holland would be weird (well, no weirder than English secessionism I suppose). |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 13:49:13 GMT
Only two parties would have been out if there had been a 2% threshold in 2012, and only barely: PvdD (1.93%) and 50+ (1.88%), so who knows if they would have made it on "mercy votes" (I would assume so). You would need a 4% threshold for it to matter (SGP, CU and GL out). The Dutch have 11 parties represented, and Denmark is set to get 10 next time with our 2% threshold. Most likely 9 of them above 4%. Fragmentation might as well happen in countries with PR and a threshold (unless you place it unreasonably high, say 8%).
It is often exaggerated how much a threshold influences a party system as voters tend to give "mercy votes" to parties they like, which are in danger of falling beneath the threshold.
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Post by lennon on Nov 18, 2016 14:20:07 GMT
I know - it says something about the Dutch people that even with such a system there is no genuine 'neo-nazi' party (Golden Dawn etc), not a 'Communist' party. There is also something about the coherance of the country that there is no 'North Holland Independance Party' or similar. The Friesland Independence Party would be more logical, or one for the Catholic provinces. North Holland seceding from a country dominated by Holland would be weird (well, no weirder than English secessionism I suppose). Yeah, I knew North Holland was a rubbish example - but my knowledge of Dutch provinces is somewhat limited.  |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 18, 2016 17:07:14 GMT
It really is a ridiculous system. The Dutch are generally a sensible lot with a tradition of compromise and pragmatism, but that system would lead to chaos in a lot of countries. I know - it says something about the Dutch people that even with such a system there is no genuine 'neo-nazi' party (Golden Dawn etc), not a 'Communist' party. There is also something about the coherance of the country that there is no 'North Holland Independance Party' or similar. The Commies are integrated into the likes of the Socialist Party. As for neo-Nazi types, I agree it is strange in some ways, but the trauma of the wartime and the lingering difficulty in discussing the NSB and other collaboration probably keeps such a thing socially unacceptable. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 17:17:04 GMT
I know - it says something about the Dutch people that even with such a system there is no genuine 'neo-nazi' party (Golden Dawn etc), not a 'Communist' party. There is also something about the coherance of the country that there is no 'North Holland Independance Party' or similar. The Commies are integrated into the likes of the Socialist Party. As for neo-Nazi types, I agree it is strange in some ways, but the trauma of the wartime and the lingering difficulty in discussing the NSB and other collaboration probably keeps such a thing socially unacceptable. The Netherlands is more comparable to Scandinavia than Germany in this regard. Neo-Nazi parties (even camouflaged ones) do not generally get 1/150 of the vote in socially liberal Northern European countries outside Germany (granted that is a small sample). |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 18, 2016 17:21:22 GMT
The Commies are integrated into the likes of the Socialist Party. As for neo-Nazi types, I agree it is strange in some ways, but the trauma of the wartime and the lingering difficulty in discussing the NSB and other collaboration probably keeps such a thing socially unacceptable. The Netherlands is more comparable to Scandinavia than Germany in this regard. Neo-Nazi parties (even camouflaged ones) do not generally get 1/150 of the vote in socially liberal Northern European countries outside Germany (granted that is a small sample). And yet some people, mainly lazy journalists, would class the DPP and the True Finns as bordering on neo-Nazis or fellow travellers. Quite a hysterical reaction in our press when either has a sniff of success. |
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 20, 2016 21:24:06 GMT
The Netherlands is more comparable to Scandinavia than Germany in this regard. Neo-Nazi parties (even camouflaged ones) do not generally get 1/150 of the vote in socially liberal Northern European countries outside Germany (granted that is a small sample). And yet some people, mainly lazy journalists, would class the DPP and the True Finns as bordering on neo-Nazis or fellow travellers. Quite a hysterical reaction in our press when either has a sniff of success. Really? I think they are both thoroughly unpleasant with decidedly reactionary views, a bit like Ukip, but they aren't 'neo-Nazi' in the sense of formal roots and/or links with actual fascists. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 20, 2016 21:44:03 GMT
And yet some people, mainly lazy journalists, would class the DPP and the True Finns as bordering on neo-Nazis or fellow travellers. Quite a hysterical reaction in our press when either has a sniff of success. Really? I think they are both thoroughly unpleasant with decidedly reactionary views, a bit like Ukip, but they aren't 'neo-Nazi' in the sense of formal roots and/or links with actual fascists. Thing is, the True Finns aren't really particularly reactionary, and have their roots firmly in the Nordic agrarian sphere. Their immigration views might be strong meat to some but they're a resolutely democratic party whose immediate ancestor was founded to oppose the authoritarianism of President Kekkonen. |
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 20, 2016 21:55:58 GMT
Really? I think they are both thoroughly unpleasant with decidedly reactionary views, a bit like Ukip, but they aren't 'neo-Nazi' in the sense of formal roots and/or links with actual fascists. Thing is, the True Finns aren't really particularly reactionary, and have their roots firmly in the Nordic agrarian sphere. Their immigration views might be strong meat to some but they're a resolutely democratic party whose immediate ancestor was founded to oppose the authoritarianism of President Kekkonen. They are very socially conservative, very anti-gay. Finland has a less progressive history on this issue than the other Nordic countries. Perhaps they were all too shocked by Tom of Finland! |
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Post by finsobruce on Nov 20, 2016 22:01:22 GMT
Thing is, the True Finns aren't really particularly reactionary, and have their roots firmly in the Nordic agrarian sphere. Their immigration views might be strong meat to some but they're a resolutely democratic party whose immediate ancestor was founded to oppose the authoritarianism of President Kekkonen. They are very socially conservative, very anti-gay. Finland has a less progressive history on this issue than the other Nordic countries. Perhaps they were all too shocked by Tom of Finland! When I used to work in a poster shop we occasionally got asked for his work, presumably on the basis that we sold a lot of Herb Ritts... |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 20, 2016 22:04:38 GMT
Thing is, the True Finns aren't really particularly reactionary, and have their roots firmly in the Nordic agrarian sphere. Their immigration views might be strong meat to some but they're a resolutely democratic party whose immediate ancestor was founded to oppose the authoritarianism of President Kekkonen. They are very socially conservative, very anti-gay. Finland has a less progressive history on this issue than the other Nordic countries. Perhaps they were all too shocked by Tom of Finland! Was he the member for Karelia? |
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 20, 2016 22:14:52 GMT
They are very socially conservative, very anti-gay. Finland has a less progressive history on this issue than the other Nordic countries. Perhaps they were all too shocked by Tom of Finland! Was he the member for Karelia? I think the term member is the most relevant here.... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 12:56:40 GMT
One of the more interesting European elections in my view due to the voting system. Proportional Representation across the whole country, with no lower threshold It really is a ridiculous system. The Dutch are generally a sensible lot with a tradition of compromise and pragmatism, but that system would lead to chaos in a lot of countries. It's a system that recognises that basically we are a country of minorities; a winner take all system would not work. We had the French system up until 1918. The country was divided in 100 divisions, with a runof round when no candidate had received a majority. Given that the southern part of the country (Brabant and Limburg) was solidly catholic, more often than not the catholic party mp's were elected Unopposed there. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 13:18:11 GMT
I know - it says something about the Dutch people that even with such a system there is no genuine 'neo-nazi' party (Golden Dawn etc), not a 'Communist' party. There is also something about the coherance of the country that there is no 'North Holland Independance Party' or similar. The Commies are integrated into the likes of the Socialist Party. As for neo-Nazi types, I agree it is strange in some ways, but the trauma of the wartime and the lingering difficulty in discussing the NSB and other collaboration probably keeps such a thing socially unacceptable. We used to have Communist mp's. I've have a sneaking suspicion my father used to vote for them until the 1970s. They were very popular after WWII because of their work in the resistance. They were electorally marginalized in the mid 50s after the Russian invasion in Hungary. Still they managed to win up to seven mp's until the 70s. Then they lost further support and had no Mp after 1982 and just 1 in 1986. They were one of 4 parties that formed GroenLinks (=GreenLeft) in the late 80s. A group of hardcore communists formed their own party, that really only had support in what is the poorest part of this country, Oost Groningen, in the North East. In my part of the world (I live in the northern part of Amsterdam where the Communist party used to be strong), many activists have joined the Socialist Party, or SP. The SP used to be a maoist-leninst movement. To place iT politically, it's part of the same European parliament grouping as Syriza |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 13:49:45 GMT
Welcome to the forum. Its good to have second Dutch poster. mazuz is busy IRL and doesn't have time to update us as much these days. |
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Post by mazuz on Nov 26, 2016 18:17:33 GMT
Welcome to the forum noorderling ! The Friesland Independence Party would be more logical, or one for the Catholic provinces. North Holland seceding from a country dominated by Holland would be weird (well, no weirder than English secessionism I suppose). The Friese Nationale Partij (FNP, Fryske Nasjonale Partij in Frisian) actually exists, although they are only soft nationalists seeking more autonomy (though federalism) and the preservation of the Frisian language. The party has a Senator and has been part of the provincial coalition in Friesland since 2011. The Frisian regionalist movement had an important role in the official name change of the province from Friesland to Fryslân in 1997. I have to say I don't know why we need this thread if we already have this one, but if that's the way this forum works then so be it. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 18:26:17 GMT
Welcome to the forum noorderling ! The Friesland Independence Party would be more logical, or one for the Catholic provinces. North Holland seceding from a country dominated by Holland would be weird (well, no weirder than English secessionism I suppose). The Friese Nationale Partij (FNP, Fryske Nasjonale Partij in Frisian) actually exists, although they are only soft nationalists seeking more autonomy (though federalism) and the preservation of the Frisian language. The party has a Senator and has been part of the provincial coalition in Friesland since 2011. The Frisian regionalist movement had an important role in the official name change of the province from Friesland to Fryslân in 1997. I have to say I don't know why we need this thread if we already have this one, but if that's the way this forum works then so be it. There are always separate threads for national elections. Swiss referendums are the only exceptions I can think of (which is logical given the sheer volume). |
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