carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 2, 2020 23:38:35 GMT
Vaccines do exist Mike, they are just being tested to make sure at least one is reliable and safe, and nothing from the combined clinical trials is giving any reason to doubt that at least one will be reliable and safe. You repeat mantra after mantra with no basis in fact because you believe it to be the case and you blankly fail to believe anything that is contrary to said belief. It must be quite a wearing way to view the world. The image of Comical Ali comes to mind - the Saddam loyalist proudly claiming that the US would never reach the capital as the tanks rolled in. I have a vision of MerseyMike telling us there is no vaccine as people queue up to receive it. Rubbish. It will be 12-years away after the economy is wrecked and the death toll of suicide has passed 100K.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 3, 2020 0:03:08 GMT
There is certain to be multiple vaccines available in the new year, although their effectiveness and longevity remains to be seen. The idea that we should ignore the probability of an effective vaccine is absurd. My main worry remains that the best vaccines may be late, and difficult therefore to be properly assessed. Still I will be happy to have multiple vaccines, and most of us will be the same. This is why circuit breakers now are a good idea. If people choose not to be vaccinated and suffer serious illness as a result, well that will be a case for a communal Darwin award. I disagree with virtually every word of that.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 3, 2020 0:04:33 GMT
Government has the responsibility to plan equally for. 1. A high quality vaccine. 2. A mediocre vaccine. 3. No vaccine. No. As I've already said, the results of multiple trials so far already show that is just a matter of time now until vaccines of at least mediocre quality are here. The planning for 1 and 2 won't be that much different; 1 just means we won't need boosters so often and less people will die.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 3, 2020 0:12:49 GMT
The image of Comical Ali comes to mind - the Saddam loyalist proudly claiming that the US would never reach the capital as the tanks rolled in. I have a vision of MerseyMike telling us there is no vaccine as people queue up to receive it. Rubbish. It will be 12-years away after the economy is wrecked and the death toll of suicide has passed 100K. So when we are told that AstraZeneca, GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer are all on track to apply for certification, and that a small roll out to key workers is over 90% likely somewhere between mid-December and mid-January, with a full roll out by the end of Q1 2021, are we being lied to?
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peterl
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Post by peterl on Nov 3, 2020 0:22:52 GMT
I would say more like the drug companies are being overly optimistic to keep their share prices up and the government are being overly optimistic to keep their polling numbers up.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 3, 2020 0:28:45 GMT
Well we won't have to wait long to see who's correct here, and the forum's search function will dig these out.
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Khunanup
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Post by Khunanup on Nov 3, 2020 0:30:28 GMT
You do know that much of local government, and actually most charities and a good chunk of central government even as well as many many businesses plan on the basis of reasonable assumptions don't you Mike. It's all based on available evidence, projection of likely funding/profits, success of programmes, even changes of customer/client/residents behaviour. It's basic forward planning, with the important sub planning based on contingencies. What's missing from the government is any overarching plan at all, the very worst of all worlds alongside waiting on absolute clarity before planning for consequences. I also know how much we are plagued by policy disasters caused by forward planning based on myth! Utter insanity. Do you understand risk based management at all? Policy disasters are few and far between compared to the inbuilt projection and risk based planning that goes on in the private and public sectors all the bloody time. We are talking about small percentages here, If it wasn't rare, public services will have completely collapsed years ago and significant business failure would be the norm rather than the exception.
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Post by independentukip on Nov 3, 2020 0:42:58 GMT
Rubbish. It will be 12-years away after the economy is wrecked and the death toll of suicide has passed 100K. So when we are told that AstraZeneca, GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer are all on track to apply for certification, and that a small roll out to key workers is over 90% likely somewhere between mid-December and mid-January, with a full roll out by the end of Q1 2021, are we being lied to? So your best case scenario suggests there is no possibility of a relaxation of the latest hard lockdown before next April. And you regard that as a positive?! People I daily see have had enough. Before the previous lockdown the shops were closing up before being required to as there were so few customers. This time the shops are crowded with customers desperate to make purchases before the criminal lockdown. And none to my knowledge are worried about Covid. They may wear the evil muzzle because they feel obliged to but more are hanging them below their noses than I previously noticed.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 3, 2020 0:44:33 GMT
There is certain to be multiple vaccines available in the new year, although their effectiveness and longevity remains to be seen. The idea that we should ignore the probability of an effective vaccine is absurd. My main worry remains that the best vaccines may be late, and difficult therefore to be properly assessed. Still I will be happy to have multiple vaccines, and most of us will be the same. This is why circuit breakers now are a good idea. If people choose not to be vaccinated and suffer serious illness as a result, well that will be a case for a communal Darwin award. LOL LOLx1000
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 3, 2020 0:51:31 GMT
I would say more like the drug companies are being overly optimistic to keep their share prices up and the government are being overly optimistic to keep their polling numbers up. Except that’s not coming from the drug companies, that’s coming from peer review of data made publicly available by the drug companies, along with where we know they’re at in the stages required to be completed before applying for a licence. The UK government has recently ordered 65 million syringes to deliver a vaccine, UNICEF will have half a billion by year’s end, the Australian government has just signed a A$24 billion deal to buy enough syringes to vaccinate every Australian, the US Departments of Health & Human Services and Defense have just bought $138 million worth of syringes, Canada have agreed a deal for an initial 37 million syringes. Would they really commit that much money, this early, if a) they weren’t reasonably confident of one or more of the vaccine trials being successful, and b) they weren’t going to have to wait 12 years to get a successful vaccine. Now nobody in their right mind should be arguing that a vaccine is going to be the end of the story - we probably won’t know even when the vaccine comes on to the market for how long it will be effective or what level of protection it gives. It is highly improbable that it will eliminate Covid, only the smallpox vaccine has ever been 100% successful in eradicating a disease, but it isn’t wrong to start from a principle of anything’s better than nothing.
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Post by independentukip on Nov 3, 2020 0:58:08 GMT
Getting back on topic for a moment I have moved from non-aligned to Reform Party here.
I don't have much positive to say about Nigel Farage but he seems the best hope we have and as there is so little hope left I have no alternative but to go with him.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 3, 2020 0:59:42 GMT
So when we are told that AstraZeneca, GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer are all on track to apply for certification, and that a small roll out to key workers is over 90% likely somewhere between mid-December and mid-January, with a full roll out by the end of Q1 2021, are we being lied to? So your best case scenario suggests there is no possibility of a relaxation of the latest hard lockdown before next April. And you regard that as a positive?! People I daily see have had enough. Before the previous lockdown the shops were closing up before being required to as there were so few customers. This time the shops are crowded with customers desperate to make purchases before the criminal lockdown. And none to my knowledge are worried about Covid. They may wear the evil muzzle because they feel obliged to but more are hanging them below their noses than I previously noticed. No halfwit. If you can vaccinate a percentage of the population you can reduce the spread of the disease thereby allowing you to ease restrictions on others. As for your second paragraph, bullshit.
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Post by independentukip on Nov 3, 2020 1:20:19 GMT
So your best case scenario suggests there is no possibility of a relaxation of the latest hard lockdown before next April. And you regard that as a positive?! People I daily see have had enough. Before the previous lockdown the shops were closing up before being required to as there were so few customers. This time the shops are crowded with customers desperate to make purchases before the criminal lockdown. And none to my knowledge are worried about Covid. They may wear the evil muzzle because they feel obliged to but more are hanging them below their noses than I previously noticed. No halfwit. If you can vaccinate a percentage of the population you can reduce the spread of the disease thereby allowing you to ease restrictions on others. As for your second paragraph, bullshit. Thanks for the abuse. Your first paragraph is so patently garbage it is not worthy of response. As for your second paragraph I'm working in retail, seeing the figures and speaking to people, so I know the reality from the first time and the massive difference this time. No bullshit. Takeaway, which I don't work in, are staying open unlike last time and I will be going out of my way to support their survival despite the dedication of your party & your Tory friends to destroy them.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 3, 2020 1:32:15 GMT
Government has the responsibility to plan equally for. 1. A high quality vaccine. 2. A mediocre vaccine. 3. No vaccine. Perhaps a 'Virtual Vaccine' for a 'Virtual Pandemic' that doesn't actually kill very many people but cunningly facilitates the death of millions by causing a complete breakdown of civil society and the NHS stopping virtually all other treatments.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 3, 2020 2:12:40 GMT
No halfwit. If you can vaccinate a percentage of the population you can reduce the spread of the disease thereby allowing you to ease restrictions on others. As for your second paragraph, bullshit. Thanks for the abuse. Your first paragraph is so patently garbage it is not worthy of response. As for your second paragraph I'm working in retail, seeing the figures and speaking to people, so I know the reality from the first time and the massive difference this time. No bullshit. Takeaway, which I don't work in, are staying open unlike last time and I will be going out of my way to support their survival despite the dedication of your party & your Tory friends to destroy them. You’re so knowledgeable you even got takeaways wrong; most stayed open last time, or else I’ve no bloody clue where Laura, one of my care team, got our bi-weekly KFC from, or the guy from JustEat brought my weekly fish and chips from, or then there’s Shannon, another one of my carers, whose partner kept going out every night ostensibly to carry on working in the kitchen of the largest Indian restaurant/takeaway in Stoke despite having just become a dad. If you can’t understand the first paragraph I’d suggest you found yourself a four year old to explain it to you.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Nov 3, 2020 8:03:25 GMT
Government has the responsibility to plan equally for. 1. A high quality vaccine. 2. A mediocre vaccine. 3. No vaccine. No. As I've already said, the results of multiple trials so far already show that is just a matter of time now until vaccines of at least mediocre quality are here. The planning for 1 and 2 won't be that much different; 1 just means we won't need boosters so often and less people will die.
Please note I am, and always have been, in favour of sensible measures being in place and planning for all eventualities, I am not a let Covid Rip idealist but your reply saying
Matter of time before........ Endorsing the government not planning for the indeterminate length of time, is mind boggling, you thereby endorse inept ad hoc government policy and the deaths that comes with it. To me that position is no different from the Covid let it rip idealists who you so hate, who accept all the deaths it brings.
I'm sure this is not what you mean but that's how it comes across to me.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 3, 2020 8:19:22 GMT
No. As I've already said, the results of multiple trials so far already show that is just a matter of time now until vaccines of at least mediocre quality are here. The planning for 1 and 2 won't be that much different; 1 just means we won't need boosters so often and less people will die. Please note I am, and always have been, in favour of sensible measures being in place and planning for all eventualities, I am not a let Covid Rip idealist but your reply saying
Matter of time before........ Endorsing the government not planning for the indeterminate length of time, is mind boggling, you thereby endorse inept ad hoc government policy and the deaths that comes with it. To me that position is no different from the Covid let it rip idealists who you so hate, who accept all the deaths it brings. I'm sure this is not what you mean but that's how it comes across to me.
The point is that there is no consideration of 3. That is simply bizarre.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 3, 2020 9:00:52 GMT
No it isn't. We are already beyond that.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Nov 3, 2020 9:18:04 GMT
No it isn't. We are already beyond that.
No planning because you think we're beyond that. Hope that doesn't come back to bite us on the arse. To me that's callous ineptitude, but each to their own I guess.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 3, 2020 9:42:06 GMT
It’s not inept to not plan for things that can no longer happen.
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