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Post by islington on Jul 3, 2016 11:50:25 GMT
Lord T -
Sorry for the delay in responding, but I wanted to get all 600 seats out there (before ASV beat me to it!) and it's possible that over the last ten days or so I have allowed myself to be slightly distracted by developments on the UK political scene (nothing major - it's just that the electorate, in its wisdom (or not), decided to press the 'reset' button).
Regarding Llanddulas and Llysfaen, many thanks for the local knowledge. I can't claim to know this area at all well, and all I was trying to do was keep Old Colwyn in the same seat as Colwyn Bay. If you make the switch that you suggest, the electorates are: Conwy 78370; Denbigh 74913. I don't think this version of Conwy is too close to the upper limit; in fact, I don't think there's such a thing as 'too close to the upper limit'. The requirement of the exercise is to get within the statutory range, not to aim for the centre of that range, so even if a seat that worked under the other criteria came out at 78507 (or 71031), I don't think it would be a problem.
On the names: I recognize that tastes vary, and I try not to get too much worked up on the subject (it's the boundaries that matter, after all); but for what it's worth, I prefer to avoid naming seats after bodies of water. So I'd be reluctant to use 'Menai'; and as for 'Delyn' and 'Alyn', I'm not even sure what these names mean. A name based on 'Flintshire', on the other hand, is likelier to convey the whereabouts of the seat to the man in the street (whom I think of as a reasonably well-educated person, resident anywhere in the UK, with a sense of civic responsibility but without a compelling interest in political minutiae).
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Post by islington on Jul 3, 2016 13:37:01 GMT
You could swap it with Gabalfa ward if you like (Cardiff N 78187, Cardiff E 74128) but it creates an eastward lobe for Cardiff N and draws Cardiff E into an area that's not really in the east of the city at all, so all in all it looks a messier boundary to my English eye.
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Jul 3, 2016 13:40:46 GMT
On the names: I recognize that tastes vary, and I try not to get too much worked up on the subject (it's the boundaries that matter, after all); but for what it's worth, I prefer to avoid naming seats after bodies of water. So I'd be reluctant to use 'Menai'; and as for 'Delyn' and 'Alyn', I'm not even sure what these names mean. A name based on 'Flintshire', on the other hand, is likelier to convey the whereabouts of the seat to the man in the street (whom I think of as a reasonably well-educated person, resident anywhere in the UK, with a sense of civic responsibility but without a compelling interest in political minutiae). To be pendantic, "Conwy" is also the name of a body of water, two in fact: a lake and the river, with the former emptying out into the latter.  With regards to the "Delyn" and "Alyn & Deeside" contituency names, I suggested those simply because the constituencies you had drawn up were sufficiently coterminous with the current constituencies of the same name, that you could simple continue to use the old names. As to what the names mean, "Delyn" is portmanteau of "Dee & Alyn", both nearby rivers, and was used as the name of the old Delyn district of County Clwyd, a similar story for "Alyn & Deeside", with both districts being roughly coterminous with the parliamentart constituencies of the same name. So, more bodies of water. As for my "Menai" constituency name suggestion, I suggested it as I simply didn't think "Anglesey and Caernarfon" sounded right, but to me "Menai" or "Menai Crossing" captured the essence of the constituency better. Definitely a "Your Mileage May Vary" situation there. Why is that? I personally don't see anything wrong with such a practise myself; I think it's fine to name constituencies after prominent geographical features in the area, as well old and current political entities, and bodies of water are valid geographical features. Another YMMV situation I suppose. |
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Post by islington on Jul 3, 2016 14:20:14 GMT
I feel that names based on towns or counties usually give the best indication of broadly where a seat is. River names tend to be either very obscure (if the river is a small one) or very imprecise (if the river is large enough to be well-known, it will usually flow through many constituencies). In your example, the Dee is a well-known river but it borders or flows through a lot of seats, all of which could fairly describe themselves as 'Deeside'.
'Delyn' is worse in that it is (I now learn) a completely made-up name - there's no such place.
I admit that 'Menai' is (a) well-known and (b) specific to one particular seat, but it falls victim to my general naming policy.
With 'Conwy', I had in mind the town rather than the river.
But as you say, preferences vary. I'm simply expressing mine, not trying to impose it on others. And the whole issue of names is secondary, compared with the boundaries - I'd rather have good boundaries, but rotten names, than the other way round.
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Post by andrewteale on Jul 3, 2016 15:24:43 GMT
One problem with ANGLESEY AND CAERNARFON (YNYS MÔN A CHAERNARFON) as a name is that you're going to get objections from Bangor, which is also in the seat and both bigger and more important than Caernarfon.
If you don't like MENAI, then ANGLESEY AND ARFON (YNYS MÔN AC ARFON) could be a compromise worth pursuing: it's less likely to cause bickering on the mainland and reflects the status of the new seat as a merger of two seats which already exist.
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Post by islington on Jul 3, 2016 17:37:25 GMT
When town names are used, the town(s) chosen will normally be the biggest or most important but this isn't necessarily always the case - sometimes a smaller town might be preferred for reasons of history or tradition (or, occasionally, because of a perverse LA name like Broxbourne or Gedling). I suggested Caernarfon because of its history as a county town (and, indeed, do I not recall reading somewhere that it was the ancient capital of Wales?). But I've no issue with 'Anglesey and Arfon' if people prefer that.
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Harry Hayfield
Green
Cavalier Gentleman (as in 17th century Cavalier)
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Post by Harry Hayfield on Jul 3, 2016 17:52:27 GMT
I've had to ditch my original suggestions (because I made a mistake) so therefore have come up with twenty nine new suggestions and have taken on board what people have said about names. Therefore I am named that constituency Anglesey and Gwynedd North West / Ynys Môn ac Gwynedd Gogledd Orllewin. Other new names I have come up with are:
(The) Brecon Beacons, Denbighshire, Montgomeryshire and Ceredigion North, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay and Rhyl, Llanelli and the Gower, Mold and the Northern Marches, St. Asaph and Deeside, Swansea Borough, Vale of Glamorgan West and Bridgend Rural
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Foggy
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Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,144
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Post by Foggy on Jul 3, 2016 22:22:17 GMT
With regards to the "Delyn" and "Alyn & Deeside" contituency names, I suggested those simply because the constituencies you had drawn up were sufficiently coterminous with the current constituencies of the same name, that you could simple continue to use the old names. As to what the names mean, "Delyn" is portmanteau of "Dee & Alyn", both nearby rivers, and was used as the name of the old Delyn district of County Clwyd, a similar story for "Alyn & Deeside", with both districts being roughly coterminous with the parliamentart constituencies of the same name. So, more bodies of water. As for my "Menai" constituency name suggestion, I suggested it as I simply didn't think "Anglesey and Caernarfon" sounded right, but to me "Menai" or "Menai Crossing" captured the essence of the constituency better. Definitely a "Your Mileage May Vary" situation there. Ugh, please no! Since Wales needs more radical change than the rest of the UK because of the massive drop in the number of seats, this is the perfect opportunity to get rid of those two abominable, nonsensical names. I am inclined to agree with the general objection to naming seats after bodies of water, and yet as a former resident of Bangor, I much prefer the name 'Menai' for the new seat in the far north west of Wales to 'Anglesey and Caernarfon'. |
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YL
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Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
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Post by YL on Jul 4, 2016 7:37:26 GMT
"Menai" is fine as an exception because it is well known and distinctive, and is also a good description of a seat covering Anglesey and part of the nearby mainland, not that I have any great objection to "Ynys Môn ac Arfon" either.
"Delyn" is terrible.
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Jul 4, 2016 15:49:44 GMT
With regards to the "Delyn" and "Alyn & Deeside" contituency names, I suggested those simply because the constituencies you had drawn up were sufficiently coterminous with the current constituencies of the same name, that you could simple continue to use the old names. As to what the names mean, "Delyn" is portmanteau of "Dee & Alyn", both nearby rivers, and was used as the name of the old Delyn district of County Clwyd, a similar story for "Alyn & Deeside", with both districts being roughly coterminous with the parliamentart constituencies of the same name. So, more bodies of water. I reckon "Delyn" was only invented because the English tend to struggle with pronouncing Tegeingl, the proper historic Welsh name for the area. In which case, perhaps it's time for a few more Welsh constituencies to use Welsh language names?  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 16:14:22 GMT
I reckon "Delyn" was only invented because the English tend to struggle with pronouncing Tegeingl, the proper historic Welsh name for the area. In which case, perhaps it's time for a few more Welsh constituencies to use Welsh language names? The Welsh Commission provided bilingual names fir all 30 recommended seats in the Zombie Review; the minutes I posted above have a rewording of that policy which adds ambiguity. |
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Adrian
Co-operative Party
Posts: 1,742
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Post by Adrian on Jul 4, 2016 16:26:53 GMT
I've had to ditch my original suggestions (because I made a mistake) so therefore have come up with twenty nine new suggestions and have taken on board what people have said about names. Therefore I am named that constituency Anglesey and Gwynedd North West / Ynys Môn ac Gwynedd Gogledd Orllewin. Other new names I have come up with are: (The) Brecon Beacons, Denbighshire, Montgomeryshire and Ceredigion North, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay and Rhyl, Llanelli and the Gower, Mold and the Northern Marches, St. Asaph and Deeside, Swansea Borough, Vale of Glamorgan West and Bridgend Rural These days, the Marches tends to refer to the English side of the border, doesn't it? |
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Harry Hayfield
Green
Cavalier Gentleman (as in 17th century Cavalier)
Posts: 2,922
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Post by Harry Hayfield on Jul 4, 2016 16:47:36 GMT
I've had to ditch my original suggestions (because I made a mistake) so therefore have come up with twenty nine new suggestions and have taken on board what people have said about names. Therefore I am named that constituency Anglesey and Gwynedd North West / Ynys Môn ac Gwynedd Gogledd Orllewin. Other new names I have come up with are: (The) Brecon Beacons, Denbighshire, Montgomeryshire and Ceredigion North, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay and Rhyl, Llanelli and the Gower, Mold and the Northern Marches, St. Asaph and Deeside, Swansea Borough, Vale of Glamorgan West and Bridgend Rural These days, the Marches tends to refer to the English side of the border, doesn't it? Wikipedia to the fore: "There is no modern legal or official definition of the extent of the Welsh Marches. However, the term the Welsh Marches (or sometimes just the Marches) is commonly used to describe those English counties which lie along the border with Wales, particularly Shropshire and Herefordshire.[15] The term is also sometimes applied to parts of Powys, Monmouthshire and Wrexham. The Marches Way is a long distance footpath which connects Chester in the north, via Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, Leominster and Abergavenny to Cardiff in South Wales. The Welsh Marches Line is a railway line from Newport in South Wales to Shrewsbury, via Abergavenny, Hereford, and Craven Arms" |
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Adrian
Co-operative Party
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Post by Adrian on Jul 4, 2016 18:01:34 GMT
These days, the Marches tends to refer to the English side of the border, doesn't it? Wikipedia to the fore: "There is no modern legal or official definition of the extent of the Welsh Marches. However, the term the Welsh Marches (or sometimes just the Marches) is commonly used to describe those English counties which lie along the border with Wales, particularly Shropshire and Herefordshire.[15] The term is also sometimes applied to parts of Powys, Monmouthshire and Wrexham. The Marches Way is a long distance footpath which connects Chester in the north, via Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, Leominster and Abergavenny to Cardiff in South Wales. The Welsh Marches Line is a railway line from Newport in South Wales to Shrewsbury, via Abergavenny, Hereford, and Craven Arms" So I was right. |
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Adrian
Co-operative Party
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Post by Adrian on Jul 26, 2016 17:20:48 GMT
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Jul 26, 2016 19:35:19 GMT
*sharpens pitchfork*Speaking (typing) as a resident of the North Wales area, I find your boundaries for the Conwy seat to be just utterly dreadful, in fact I'm not even sure if Conwy is a suitable name for that constituency you drew up (and I'm not particularly keen the idea my home ward of Llansanffraid being lumped into the same constituency as Abergele). I have similar sentiment over the other North Wales seats you've drawn up as well. I think I definitely prefer islington's most recent boundary proposals over this one.  
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Adrian
Co-operative Party
Posts: 1,742
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Post by Adrian on Jul 26, 2016 21:17:40 GMT
I'll put you down as a No then. :-)
I think the seat is a thing of beauty... nestling as it does between the river and the Denbigh borough boundary. I wasn't going to call it Conwy, but Colwyn Bay didn't sound quite right somehow. What's the problem with Abergele and Glan Conwy being in the same seat?
There's no way I'm going to propose seats such as Abergele & Rhosllanerchrugog and Lleyn & Welshpool...
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Jul 26, 2016 21:42:03 GMT
What's the problem with Abergele and Glan Conwy being in the same seat? You mean other than Abergele being an utterly awful place in dire need of demolition? (Along with the whole Abergele-Towyn-Kinmel Bay-Rhyl-Prestatyn urban conurbation, for that matter) But, serious answer, I just don't feel that the two places have much of a connection to each other beyond being in the same local authority. Maybe decades ago when old Denbighshire was a thing, but I'm not so sure about today. At least, that's impression I get whenever I've passed through the area. I've always felt that Glan Conwy, as the northern entrance to the Conwy Valley, had more in common with the communities in the Nant Conwy area (the wards of Conwy County that were once part of Meirionydd Nant Conwy), and possibly Caerhun. Of course all of this is largely based off gut feeling, and I actually quite like the current boundaries of the Aberconwy constituency, though I understand why it cannot continue to stand exclusively in that form, and that I also understand that potential constituency boundaries cannot be centred around minor communities like Glan Conwy. At the very least I think all the Conwy County components of the old Conwy constituency should remain together, and I will say that I'm actually fine with having Glan Conwy share representation with Colwyn Bay. Personally, my ideal constituency would essentially be a the old Conwy constituency plus Colwyn Bay, but a brief session with the Boundary Assistant in attempting to construct viable constituencies with "Conwy plus" being a factor soon disabused of the notion of that constituency ever existing. Might actually try uploading an image of that attempt to see what everyone else thinks of it. |
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Jul 26, 2016 21:57:45 GMT
And here's what I came up with...  I think the big thing that could cause these boundary proposals to come unstuck is the detatched nature of the CAERNARFON & YNYS MON constituency, primarily the fact that you have to cross over into another constituency to go between the island and mainland parts via road. Also, I'm not too sure about some of the details of the boundaries for DENBIGH. |
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Adrian
Co-operative Party
Posts: 1,742
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Post by Adrian on Jul 26, 2016 22:44:50 GMT
See my addition to my previous post. I think the Snowdonia seat needs to be kept within reasonable bounds, and stretching it to the English border isn't my definition of reasonable.
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