|
|
Post by Merseymike on Jan 26, 2015 23:10:19 GMT
I don't disagree, but obviously my idea of the sort of state I would like to see is closer to that of Syriza. At least they will have no truck with corruption, which characterises the way the Greek system has operated. When we visited not one credit card machine worked - and these were upmarket restaurants..... It's harder to avoid paying VAT if people use credit or debit cards to settle bills. I wouldn't imagine any part of our cash payments made it into the tax system |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 23:20:44 GMT
But are they really "far right" as the BBC have just claimed? Sad to see some posters here echoing Cameron's utterly graceless response to the election result, btw. I can quite understand how Greeks have voted in the circumstances - anybody who doesn't needs to take a look at themselves. I don't even pretend to show grace to the far left or far right. Greece now needs to be made an example if Syriza refuse to engage with the creditors. It's a bloody disgrace. |
|
john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,796 
Member is Online
|
Post by john07 on Jan 26, 2015 23:30:06 GMT
It's harder to avoid paying VAT if people use credit or debit cards to settle bills. I wouldn't imagine any part of our cash payments made it into the tax system That is at the root of the problem for Greece and also for Italy. The Italians have tried to crack down on tax evasion. I gather that it is a criminal offence to pay a restaurant, bar or shop without receiving a till receipt. When we were in Venice a couple of weeks back, in one restarant we were given a handwritten bill. Immediate reaction was that they we at it. It was well outside the tourist area on Garibaldi so they presumably thought that there was little chance of detection. We went back two or three days later and the same thing happened. In all other bars and restaurants, till receipts were provided. |
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Jan 26, 2015 23:53:47 GMT
But are they really "far right" as the BBC have just claimed? Sad to see some posters here echoing Cameron's utterly graceless response to the election result, btw. I can quite understand how Greeks have voted in the circumstances - anybody who doesn't needs to take a look at themselves. I don't even pretend to show grace to the far left or far right. Greece now needs to be made an example if Syriza refuse to engage with the creditors. It's a bloody disgrace. 'Engage'? They weren't elected to dance to their tune. I hope they don't. |
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jan 26, 2015 23:55:45 GMT
Same in the Philippines- once you're outside the National Capital Region it's a different story though.
|
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jan 26, 2015 23:57:22 GMT
I don't even pretend to show grace to the far left or far right. Greece now needs to be made an example if Syriza refuse to engage with the creditors. It's a bloody disgrace. 'Engage'? They weren't elected to dance to their tune. I hope they don't. Indeed. If they refuse to pay it back, it's pretty much the obvious will of the people. |
|
Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
|
Post by Richard Allen on Jan 27, 2015 0:37:36 GMT
I don't even pretend to show grace to the far left or far right. Greece now needs to be made an example if Syriza refuse to engage with the creditors. It's a bloody disgrace. 'Engage'? They weren't elected to dance to their tune. I hope they don't. As a nation Greece has obligations, they cannot walk away from them without serious consequences. |
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jan 27, 2015 0:42:25 GMT
Perhaps they shouldn't have been bailed out in the first place.
|
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,937
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Jan 27, 2015 0:45:41 GMT
Failed state. Failed economy. Corruption and cupidity fought it out and cupidity won. So the lucky Germans get to keep the lazy useless feckless Greeks in the state they have never earned and do not deserve.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 7:52:44 GMT
I don't even pretend to show grace to the far left or far right. Greece now needs to be made an example if Syriza refuse to engage with the creditors. It's a bloody disgrace. 'Engage'? They weren't elected to dance to their tune. I hope they don't. The Greeks do not and should have the power to vote down their debts. Their attempts to do so are frankly pathetic. If the response is anything other a lack of willingness to negotiate from the eu then the problem of other anti-world parties like the greens and Podemos will only grow. The problem must be confined, the baby strangled at birth. |
|
cj
Socialist
These fragments I have shored against my ruins
Posts: 3,285
|
Post by cj on Jan 27, 2015 8:29:22 GMT
The will of the people is not sovereign? Contract and financial obligations are the highest order?
Debts have always been forgiven when certain circumstances or crisis points have been met, to not do so would ensure the whole system has no pressure valve and that line of development will lead to the 'next born' being revolution.
Perhaps the recent(ish) example of 1943 with money owed to the Greek state by the German state (here) could be used as a discussion point...
|
|
Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
|
Post by Richard Allen on Jan 27, 2015 10:12:40 GMT
The will of the people is not sovereign? Contract and financial obligations are the highest order?
Debts have always been forgiven when certain circumstances or crisis points have been met, to not do so would ensure the whole system has no pressure valve and that line of development will lead to the 'next born' being revolution.
Perhaps the recent(ish) example of 1943 with money owed to the Greek state by the German state (here) could be used as a discussion point...
Greece has the option to default on their debts if they so wish but that action has consequences. |
|
maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312
Member is Online
|
Post by maxque on Jan 27, 2015 10:28:21 GMT
'Engage'? They weren't elected to dance to their tune. I hope they don't. The Greeks do not and should have the power to vote down their debts. Their attempts to do so are frankly pathetic. If the response is anything other a lack of willingness to negotiate from the eu then the problem of other anti-world parties like the greens and Podemos will only grow. The problem must be confined, the baby strangled at birth. Right minding. Predatory lenders must be strangled at death, as must austerity. Tax evaders, too. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 27, 2015 10:37:04 GMT
If Syriza weren't elected to dance to the EU's tune,then why should the Germans and Finns agree to dance to Syriza's tune.
Greece has spent the money. They doubled their debt as a proportion of GDP in twenty years and nearly trebled it by 2005. The current situation is a smokescreen for a Greek political class,and electorate,who milked the cow to death without bothering to feed it,and are now blaming the vet.
That spending binge has to be paid for. No lender forced them to hold an Olympics,fail to effectively collect tax,let people retire on final salary in their fifties,hand out nice little sinecures and create a noxious,incestuous business environment where the lines of State and business were blurred.
|
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 27, 2015 10:42:52 GMT
On a related note- in my past employment in accountancy,our Greek sister company was under instruction not to accept any contracts from the Greek government,because the risks were too high. Make of that what you will- this was in 2007.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 13:09:43 GMT
The Greeks do not and should have the power to vote down their debts. Their attempts to do so are frankly pathetic. If the response is anything other a lack of willingness to negotiate from the eu then the problem of other anti-world parties like the greens and Podemos will only grow. The problem must be confined, the baby strangled at birth. Right minding. Predatory lenders must be strangled at death, as must austerity. Tax evaders, too. Nobody wants or likes the current situation is Greece. To blame the lenders rather than a ludicrous misuse of public f is astonishing though. |
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jan 27, 2015 13:25:06 GMT
Well the lenders didn't help, did they.
|
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,937
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Jan 27, 2015 17:27:58 GMT
Well the lenders didn't help, did they. Well! Yes. They helped by lending them the money to live and pay pensions etc. If that is not 'help' what bis it? Perhaps unjustified charity could be substituted? You seem to suggest that the dubious, feckless, debt avoiders are the 'victim' rather than the cause of ALL of their problems. |
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jan 27, 2015 17:30:35 GMT
I'm trying to suggest that if the lenders hadn't lent, the Greeks would have had to wake up and smell the coffee a good while ago.
|
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,937
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Jan 27, 2015 17:38:01 GMT
I'm trying to suggest that if the lenders hadn't lent, the Greeks would have had to wake up and smell the coffee a good while ago. OK! Accept that. They needed to wake up and smell the hot water not the coffee, and then to turn out to do a real job of hard work for at least 8-hours, rather than sitting in a cafe with friends pretending to do a public sector non-job sinecure funded by other countries. |
|
