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[Merseymike]

I really don't think quoting anything Hannan says is going to have any effect. I don't buy the basic argument in any case. I despise the Right and not in a cuddly way either. I see their ideas as opposite to mine, so see no reason to want to work or compromise with them. I don't hate them, but I thoroughly disagree with the sort of society they try and create. I'm no responsible for what others on the left may say however, but I'm quite willing to own my own views.

Of course, your own view, though non-aligned in party terms, is firmly on the right

[Pete Whitehead]

With respect Mike your attitude is neither here nor there. You think people on the 'right' (which I guess includes anyone from Trident and Luciana Berger rightwards) are a different species - a tried and tested device for dehumanising those of a different political persuasion which historically has led to the gulag and the killing fields. Anyway I digress - as I say its not about you. The point here is the CEO of the Electoral Reform society which affects some kind of high minded non-partisanship is making an advocacy of a particular electoral system based on the partisan impact. Ask David Boothroyd what it is called when voting reform is enacted with the express purpose of advantaging or disadvanting one party over another. My point was not that she should supporting the Tory party but that she obviously doesn't and therefore arguing for a system on the basis that it does benefit them is cynical and transparent.
You might expect me to criticise the ERS (even though I support open lists) so don't take it from me - obviously as a vile right winger my views are worthless and illegitimate to you, but look at the comments on the ERS website following the article, by people who are supporters of that outfit

[Merseymike]

Aug 4, 2013 21:25:53 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

With respect Mike your attitude is neither here nor there. You think people on the 'right' (which I guess includes anyone from Trident and Luciana Berger rightwards) are a different species - a tried and tested device for dehumanising those of a different political persuasion which historically has led to the gulag and the killing fields. Anyway I digress - as I say its not about you. The point here is the CEO of the Electoral Reform society which affects some kind of high minded non-partisanship is making an advocacy of a particular electoral system based on the partisan impact. Ask David Boothroyd what it is called when voting reform is enacted with the express purpose of advantaging or disadvanting one party over another. My point was not that she should supporting the Tory party but that she obviously doesn't and therefore arguing for a system on the basis that it does benefit them is cynical and transparent.
You might expect me to criticise the ERS (even though I support open lists) so don't take it from me - obviously as a vile right winger my views are worthless and illegitimate to you, but look at the comments on the ERS website following the article, by people who are supporters of that outfit

I'm quite sceptical about the ERS but to be frank most I know see them as very partisan LibDem sympathisers. I didn't read much into this particular statement, certainly not the way that right-wingers here have done. And I don't support open lists, but would like to see smaller constituencies. Neither are likely to happen before next year.

I find your attitude strange given you seem to treat those on the left in much the way you have described me - particularly if they actively support causes you disapprove of.

[Pete Whitehead]

The ERS are likely to be sympathetic to the LDs on the whole and unsympathetic to the Tories on the whole for the rather obvious reason that the LDs have support for electoral reform as one of their central policies and the Tories are almost universally opposed to it. There's an obvious difference between supporting electoral reform on its own intrinsic merits and as a consequence being sympathetic to the political party which most strongly supports electoral reform and advocating a particular reform on the basis that it will deliver a particular result in terms of acting to the detriment of one party or another.

On your second point you're wrong - perhaps it depends how you define 'the left. If you mean your own very narrow and extreme brand of left wing politics then perhaps so. Naturally when so much bile and vitriol comes from a particular type of person because of one's class or one's personal opinions one is not going to view them favourably. I wouldn;t say by a long way that such an attitude is universal or even typical on the left. If we take this site (which you are relatively new to in terms of posting) there is an acceptance amongst most people here of others from across the spectrum and I generally enjoy cordial or even friendly relations with most of those on here who support the Labour or Green parties. I have always had plenty of friends in 'real life' who are on the left as well. By definition these are people who are not so one-dimensional that they refuse to associate with people from another part of the political spectrum, who see them as the enemy or another species. I have encountered this mentality though. I can remember at university having a perfectly pleasant chat with someone only for him to be told by a mutual acquiantance that I was a Tory at which point he immediately became hostile and abusive. It is quite natural to view somneone like that as a cunt, not for their left wing views per se, but for being so obsessive about them that they can't even be civil to someone with opposite views. But I don't think you or he are typical of all on the left, even if you are numerous enough to represent a phenomenen of the type described by Dan Hannan

[Deleted]

Aug 4, 2013 19:07:35 GMT Merseymike said:

I really don't think quoting anything Hannan says is going to have any effect. I don't buy the basic argument in any case. I despise the Right and not in a cuddly way either. I see their ideas as opposite to mine, so see no reason to want to work or compromise with them. I don't hate them, but I thoroughly disagree with the sort of society they try and create. I'm no responsible for what others on the left may say however, but I'm quite willing to own my own views.

Of course, your own view, though non-aligned in party terms, is firmly on the right

Funny, you come across as one of the least partisan labour posters on here.

I could for example, quite imagine you crossing the floor on something an id cards vote.

[johnr]

Politics, as Harold Wilson (I think) said is the art of the possible. In other words, we have to work with people we may not like or agree with in order to get the things we want.

Thats why, here in Scotland, Labour is working with the Lib Dems and Tories in the campaign against independence. IN order to achieve the devolved Scotland within the UK, we have to work with people who want different things (full federalism in the case of the Lib Dems, and the Tories are about to do another u-turn on devolution and support some further powers).

In local authorities up and down the land, local councillors work with colleagues from other parties where there is no overall control, in order to get the policies they want implemented. Is that wrong? No, of course not, but getting the balance right is important - its the art of the possible.

[andrea]

Aug 4, 2013 21:25:53 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

With respect Mike your attitude is neither here nor there. You think people on the 'right' (which I guess includes anyone from Trident and Luciana Berger rightwards)

Aug 4, 2013 22:35:56 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

I have encountered this mentality though. I can remember at university having a perfectly pleasant chat with someone only for him to be told by a mutual acquiantance that I was a Tory at which point he immediately became hostile and abusive. It is quite natural to view somneone like that as a cunt, not for their left wing views per se, but for being so obsessive about them that they can't even be civil to someone with opposite views.

Tying all together, here's an anecdote by Tory MP Rory Stewart on Luciana Berger (in his BBC diary about the first 3 weeks in the Commons for a newbye)

So across the aisle are these young Labour people. I've got a friend called Tristram Hunt (MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central), who I like very much, who is sitting over there.
He was sitting next to a very glamorous looking person called Gloria De Piero (MP for Ashfield), who's a celebrity TV journalist, and I went over to talk to them afterwards. They seem to be quite young, quite informal - quite a fun group.
I actually had a very good conversation with some of them though I must confess there was a moment I thought, when I was talking to Luciana Berger (MP for Liverpool Wavertree), that when I told her I was a Tory she didn't seem so keen on talking to me anymore.

[Devonian]

Aug 4, 2013 19:07:35 GMT Merseymike said:

I really don't think quoting anything Hannan says is going to have any effect. I don't buy the basic argument in any case. I despise the Right and not in a cuddly way either. I see their ideas as opposite to mine, so see no reason to want to work or compromise with them. I don't hate them, but I thoroughly disagree with the sort of society they try and create. I'm no responsible for what others on the left may say however, but I'm quite willing to own my own views.

Of course, your own view, though non-aligned in party terms, is firmly on the right

So you don't hate the right. You do however despise them (not in a cuddly way). You don't want to work or compromise with them and you think you have virtually nothing in common with them. You think they are neanderthals, barely of the same species. You consider the unsuitable people and vile racists.

I'm not quite sure how you can claim you don't hate the right?

[The Bishop]

You only have to look at the comments at the likes of pb.com or Guido's to see that any claim such a mentality is confined to "the left" is a falsehood.

Oddly enough, Hannan neglects to mention that.....

[Deleted]

For me I do not hate anyone on the right but I hate the policies they want to implement. There are some areas parties can work together but most areas there should be deep water between our ideas. We have all had enough off the triangulation of politics. Politics should be raw and vicious because it is a battle of ideas. This is hardly new is it and I am sure there are tory quotes about Labour from generations ago.

No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.

The Tories, every election, must have a bogy man. If you haven't got a programme, a bogy man will do.

[Deleted]

Aug 5, 2013 9:42:45 GMT The Bishop said:

You only have to look at the comments at the likes of pb.com or Guido's to see that any claim such a mentality is confined to "the left" is a falsehood.

Oddly enough, Hannan neglects to mention that.....

Guido just hates everyone.

[The Bishop]

I was referring in both cases to the btl comments

[Devonian]

Aug 5, 2013 9:42:45 GMT The Bishop said:

You only have to look at the comments at the likes of pb.com or Guido's to see that any claim such a mentality is confined to "the left" is a falsehood.

Oddly enough, Hannan neglects to mention that.....

He does mention it. The article he clearly says such attitudes are found on the right but are much more common on the left. Not the same thing as saying they are confined to the left.

[The Bishop]

I would dispute the "more common" claim, come to that.

[Sibboleth]

The trouble with you lot is that you're all a bunch of tribalists.

[Deleted]

Aug 5, 2013 9:55:54 GMT @ianrobo said:

For me I do not hate anyone on the right but I hate the policies they want to implement. There are some areas parties can work together but most areas there should be deep water between our ideas. We have all had enough off the triangulation of politics. Politics should be raw and vicious because it is a battle of ideas. This is hardly new is it and I am sure there are tory quotes about Labour from generations ago.

No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.

The Tories, every election, must have a bogy man. If you haven't got a programme, a bogy man will do.

You don't hate anyone on the right, only their policies, yet are then happy to reproduce a quote saying the Tories (not their policies) are "lower than vermin". Perhaps you've gota different view of vermin than most of us.

I doubt you could find similar Tory quotes about socialists.

[Deleted]

oh you could, thats easy ... just check a few posts on here.

What those quotes say is that the new third way was only temporary way of Blairism. People and esp LD's say they want a more consensual politics but in practice where does that work. You may point to the coalition but I think that only works because of the two party leaders and maybe the likes of Laws, the rest dislike each other as much as any political opponents.

[Merseymike]

Aug 5, 2013 9:09:43 GMT Devonian said:

Aug 4, 2013 19:07:35 GMT Merseymike said:

I really don't think quoting anything Hannan says is going to have any effect. I don't buy the basic argument in any case. I despise the Right and not in a cuddly way either. I see their ideas as opposite to mine, so see no reason to want to work or compromise with them. I don't hate them, but I thoroughly disagree with the sort of society they try and create. I'm no responsible for what others on the left may say however, but I'm quite willing to own my own views.

Of course, your own view, though non-aligned in party terms, is firmly on the right

So you don't hate the right. You do however despise them (not in a cuddly way). You don't want to work or compromise with them and you think you have virtually nothing in common with them. You think they are neanderthals, barely of the same species. You consider the unsuitable people and vile racists.

I'm not quite sure how you can claim you don't hate the right?

There is a difference between hatred, which I regard as something quite irrational and personal, and strongly disagreeing with an ideological stance and seeing it as incompatible with my own beliefs and the sort of society I would like to live in.

I think there has been too much triangulation and compromise, and I know that some on the Right would agree!

[Sibboleth]

Aug 5, 2013 14:21:57 GMT @peawet said:

I doubt you could find similar Tory quotes about socialists.

'But they are scum!'

Neville Chamberlain

May not be an exact quote, but that's the gist of it.

[Merseymike]

Aug 5, 2013 8:11:26 GMT joe said:

Aug 4, 2013 19:07:35 GMT Merseymike said:

I really don't think quoting anything Hannan says is going to have any effect. I don't buy the basic argument in any case. I despise the Right and not in a cuddly way either. I see their ideas as opposite to mine, so see no reason to want to work or compromise with them. I don't hate them, but I thoroughly disagree with the sort of society they try and create. I'm no responsible for what others on the left may say however, but I'm quite willing to own my own views.

Of course, your own view, though non-aligned in party terms, is firmly on the right

Funny, you come across as one of the least partisan labour posters on here.

I could for example, quite imagine you crossing the floor on something an id cards vote.

I'm probably less partisan because I'm more to the left than the current Labour party - but in general, yes, I think that parties are there to achieve a practical end, not something one declares undying loyalty to no matter what