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Post by where2travel on Jul 8, 2024 11:56:35 GMT
It still is. But it's just not quite as heavily Conservative as it was even 6 years ago. It is an excellent illustration of the difficulties the Tories find themselves in that they can no longer beat Labour overwhelmingly in West Wickham, or some similar wards. Comfortably, yes, but overwhelmingly not for the time being. As per my profile, the real killer for the Tories has been their precipitous decline in Clock House ward, which was competitive for them a decade ago, but is now very heavily Labour. Obviously not a direct mapping, but the 2022 elections gave a clear indication that reverting to the old Beckenham (pre-2010) seat the Tories won in 1997 would mean they were in with no chance at a General Election now (except in very good year for them). The Tory vote had ebbed away to the point of losing Copers Cope, and Labour secured 30-40% vote shares in Shortlands & Park Langley and Kelsey & Eden Park and were not far behind that in West Wickham. In 1997 the addition of West Wickham into the Beckenham seat saved the Tories, but it needs a lot more than that now with very little to properly balance out the Labour strongholds in the inner 3 wards. |
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Post by batman on Aug 14, 2024 20:09:14 GMT
It had only today come to my attention that the victorious Labour candidate is the son of none other than Sue Gray.
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Post by where2travel on Aug 14, 2024 22:03:05 GMT
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Post by redtony on Oct 7, 2024 20:22:54 GMT
HE CAN NOT INFULENCE ANYTHING NOW ANY MORE THAN ANY OTHER NEWLY ELECTED LABOUR MP
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Post by sanders on Oct 8, 2024 5:19:18 GMT
The definition of a political dynasty. Cf Labour's new MP in Lincoln. And we have Kinnock and Benn. Why so many dynasties here now? This really stinks to high heaven, objectively. I'm working backwards from my conclusions. And this is all confirmation bias. But I'm being honest about that. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Oct 8, 2024 12:34:38 GMT
The definition of a political dynasty. Cf Labour's new MP in Lincoln. And we have Kinnock and Benn. Why so many dynasties here now? This really stinks to high heaven, objectively. I'm working backwards from my conclusions. And this is all confirmation bias. But I'm being honest about that. There are loads of examples of political dynasties in the past including the Chamberlains and the Churchill family. Sometimes they don’t work out as you would expect with Stanley Balwin’s son, Oliver, being a Labour MP. Then there was Leo Amery whose son Julian was also a prominent Conservative. The less said about his other son, John (hanged for treason), the better. |
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
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Post by Tony Otim on Oct 8, 2024 13:43:39 GMT
In all walks of life it's quite usual to have some children who wish to follow in their parents' footsteps, whether that be politics, acting, professional sports, being a doctor or a lawyer or a builder.
I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that, even in politics, unless there is a suggestion of being given an unfair hand up.
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Post by batman on Oct 8, 2024 17:40:51 GMT
Of course it doesn't "stink to high heaven". You name me a democratic country where literally no children of legislators ever become legislators themselves. The Tories have always had dynasties. Labour doesn't have so many, the Benns are really the only one that is more than a couple of generations of continuous legislative activity. Of course there have been other Labour MPs related to other previous MPs, e.g. Katy Clark (N Ayrshire & Arran until her defeat at the hands of the SNP in 2015) had a great-great-grandfather who had been a Labour MP up to WWII, but nobody in between. The Kinnocks & Parrys are perhaps a mini-dynasty, but Glenys's brother Colin never made it to Parliament, and she herself never stood in a parliamentary election though she got a peerage later on. I suppose you could call the Cryers & Reeveses a bit of a dynasty too, though I think you'd be stretching things a very long way if you were to claim that Rachel & Ellie Reeves only got where they are today because Ellie married into the Cryer family. Some people on this forum will have an apoplectic fit if they don't calm down a bit, and we wouldn't want that would we.
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Post by sanders on Oct 8, 2024 17:51:35 GMT
It’s more the Sue Gray connection. She went from government to politics. For many her antics still rancour. That arguably tarnished this particular selection. Kinnock hasn’t done all that much. I barely know about the Cryers.
We’re not as bad as America. Trump defenestrated three political dynasties there. The Bushes, the Clintons, the Cheneys. Our parliament has far fewer millionaires. So maybe I am overreacting here.
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Post by batman on Oct 8, 2024 18:11:38 GMT
I remember when Sir Burke Trend was just about the most senior person in the Civil Service, being the Cabinet Secretary. His son Michael went on to become a Conservative MP, being forced to step down because of a minor scandal in 2005.
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Post by sanders on Oct 8, 2024 18:17:30 GMT
I remember when Sir Burke Trend was just about the most senior person in the Civil Service, being the Cabinet Secretary. His son Michael went on to become a Conservative MP, being forced to step down because of a minor scandal in 2005. You reminded me that Jacob Rees-Mogg’s sister(?) lost in 2010 in Somerton & Frome. I think she didn’t want to go by Nancy instead of her full name. Of course he’s now out of Parliament. Jack Straw’s lost in Rosendale & Darwen in 2015, IIRC. Jack Straw also quit Parliament that year under a cloud along with Malcolm Rifkind. Feels like a lifetime ago. |
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 8, 2024 19:33:52 GMT
I remember when Sir Burke Trend was just about the most senior person in the Civil Service, being the Cabinet Secretary. His son Michael went on to become a Conservative MP, being forced to step down because of a minor scandal in 2005. You reminded me that Jacob Rees-Mogg’s sister(?) lost in 2010 in Somerton & Frome. I think she didn’t want to go by Nancy instead of her full name. Of course he’s now out of Parliament. Jack Straw’s lost in Rosendale & Darwen in 2015, IIRC. Jack Straw also quit Parliament that year under a cloud along with Malcolm Rifkind. Feels like a lifetime ago. Will Straw could have got a safe seat, but he seems to prefer the Kings Trust (eg Princes Trust). |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
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Post by Foggy on Oct 9, 2024 0:26:35 GMT
The definition of a political dynasty. Cf Labour's new MP in Lincoln. And we have Kinnock and Benn. Why so many dynasties here now? This really stinks to high heaven, objectively. I'm working backwards from my conclusions. And this is all confirmation bias. But I'm being honest about that. There are loads of examples of political dynasties in the past including the Chamberlains and the Churchill family. Sometimes they don’t work out as you would expect with Stanley Balwin’s son, Oliver, being a Labour MP. Then there was Leo Amery whose son Julian was also a prominent Conservative. The less said about his other son, John (hanged for treason), the better. Not to mention the grandson of Clement Attlee sitting as a Conservative peer! I remember when Sir Burke Trend was just about the most senior person in the Civil Service, being the Cabinet Secretary. His son Michael went on to become a Conservative MP, being forced to step down because of a minor scandal in 2005. You reminded me that Jacob Rees-Mogg’s sister(?) lost in 2010 in Somerton & Frome. I think she didn’t want to go by Nancy instead of her full name. Of course he’s now out of Parliament. Jack Straw’s lost in Rosendale & Darwen in 2015, IIRC. Jack Straw also quit Parliament that year under a cloud along with Malcolm Rifkind. Feels like a lifetime ago. Annunziata Rees-Mogg is indeed Jacob's sister, and was briefly later an MEP (elected as Brexit Party, defected back to Tories) but for the East Midlands rather than the South West. If you want an example of a polity riddled with nepotism, then the current occupant of 24 Sussex Drive says " bonjour, hi" |
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Post by sanders on Oct 9, 2024 6:33:01 GMT
There are loads of examples of political dynasties in the past including the Chamberlains and the Churchill family. Sometimes they don’t work out as you would expect with Stanley Balwin’s son, Oliver, being a Labour MP. Then there was Leo Amery whose son Julian was also a prominent Conservative. The less said about his other son, John (hanged for treason), the better. Not to mention the grandson of Clement Attlee sitting as a Conservative peer! You reminded me that Jacob Rees-Mogg’s sister(?) lost in 2010 in Somerton & Frome. I think she didn’t want to go by Nancy instead of her full name. Of course he’s now out of Parliament. Jack Straw’s lost in Rosendale & Darwen in 2015, IIRC. Jack Straw also quit Parliament that year under a cloud along with Malcolm Rifkind. Feels like a lifetime ago. Annunziata Rees-Mogg is indeed Jacob's sister, and was briefly later an MEP (elected as Brexit Party, defected back to Tories) but for the East Midlands rather than the South West. If you want an example of a polity riddled with nepotism, then the current occupant of 24 Sussex Drive says " bonjour, hi" We had Jo Churchill previously too. We also had Laura Sandys MP. I think related to Duncan Sandys. There was Nicholas Soames MP too. |
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Post by matureleft on Oct 9, 2024 6:58:29 GMT
Family links in politics are not mainly (in my view) about nepotism. I’ll explain (from personal experience).
Politics beyond giving brief, fairly unconsidered, thought and then turning up at a polling station is rare. Having it as something talked about within a family regularly, and encountering a respected family member who has devoted lots of time to it (even as a councillor) is pretty unusual. A young person may well be bored or repelled. But there’s a chance that they’ll sit, listen and ask questions. And that can then lead to activity.
In the family context what would seem to most as alien, even ‘weird’, appears normal.
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Post by sanders on Oct 9, 2024 7:11:29 GMT
We all have our own biases. I don't like dynasty politicians much. But I have a pro-Oxbridge bias. So it's about checking that, possibly. I can judge MPs on merit.
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Post by samdwebber on Oct 9, 2024 9:11:36 GMT
Surely a strategic error to win this new seat by just under 13,000 votes and to lose the seat next door by 302 votes?
Labour activists were not allowed to transfer into Bromley and Biggin Hill at all. There was a small skeleton team with the candidate only in B&BH as far as Im aware from social media and talking to Labour colleagues (Im a LibDem cllr in Bromley)
This seems a weird decision given the hundreds of campaigners pouring into Beckenham in the final stretch of the campaign and on polling day. The Mayor of London was here a number of times for example.
Labour called for a recount in B&BH but only got a bundle check
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Post by sanders on Oct 9, 2024 9:17:36 GMT
Surely a strategic error to win this new seat by just under 13,000 votes and to lose the seat next door by 302 votes? Labour activists were not allowed to transfer into Bromley and Biggin Hill at all. There was a small skeleton team with the candidate only in B&BH as far as Im aware from social media and talking to Labour colleagues (Im a LibDem cllr in Bromley) This seems a weird decision given the hundreds of campaigners pouring into Beckenham in the final stretch of the campaign and on polling day. The Mayor of London was here a number of times for example. Labour called for a recount in B&BH but only got a bundle check I don't think it's just that. Some long ULEZ after-effects in B&BH? You'd know better than me there. It's a crazy discrepancy that's true. |
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nyx
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Post by nyx on Oct 9, 2024 9:20:59 GMT
Surely a strategic error to win this new seat by just under 13,000 votes and to lose the seat next door by 302 votes? Labour could probably have won quite a few more seats from the Tories with better targeting. But it is probably in Labour's interest to maintain a two-party system– I don't think they'd have wanted the Tories to drop to being the third largest party. And there's no practical difference between 400 vs 450 MPs. So I think Labour's strategy worked |
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Post by batman on Oct 9, 2024 9:42:52 GMT
Not to mention the grandson of Clement Attlee sitting as a Conservative peer! Annunziata Rees-Mogg is indeed Jacob's sister, and was briefly later an MEP (elected as Brexit Party, defected back to Tories) but for the East Midlands rather than the South West. If you want an example of a polity riddled with nepotism, then the current occupant of 24 Sussex Drive says " bonjour, hi" We had Jo Churchill previously too. We also had Laura Sandys MP. I think related to Duncan Sandys. There was Nicholas Soames MP too. Jo Churchill is not AFAIK related to Winston, Randolph or other famous Churchills. Laura is Duncan's daughter. I used to know her half-brother who was a barrister in dad's chambers. He was quite incredibly right-wing. Laura isn't. I met her in a greasy spoon with other Conservative Party workers during the Feltham & Heston by-election; one had come down all the way from St Helens. I had to respect such dedication in what was obviously a losing cause. |
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