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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Feb 16, 2024 13:25:33 GMT
It is....surprising....that even given that unrealistic SNP assumption, a Labour share increase of that magnitude would net so few Scottish seats. Just shows how dreadful their 2019 result was there. An increase of 19.4% is not to be sniffed at but its lower than in Selby or Tamworth - the more spectacular element of the swing here was the decline in the Conservative vote (I don't know if that -37% is a record in itself?). If you compare with the similar sized swing in Dudley West, that was much more of a straigh exhange (Con -30% Lab +28%) So with the SNP not declining (obviously they will and would, but you can't extrapolate that from an English by-election) that equates to a swing of less than 10% from SNP to Labour, which doesn't yield all that much, because as you say.. The 37% beats the change from Christchurch, which I believe was the previous record? |
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2024 13:27:50 GMT
And, it's no great sin is it? Most of us do it. Like my opening 'And', a conjunction to nothing. It is a sort of clearing of the throat or perhaps a call to attention? 4-decades back in the East Midlands, it was common to open with "Now look"! A bit invasive and peremptory. Or here in South Yorkshire the near ubiquitous "RRRR-YERRR-ALLLLREEEET"? Which is opener rather than health enquiry, except when it is a health enquiry, which is quite often! Of course, and I commonly start a conversation with "Eh up, buddy, how are you?" Really? You astonish me. How frightfully American and chummy. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 16, 2024 13:28:34 GMT
An increase of 19.4% is not to be sniffed at but its lower than in Selby or Tamworth - the more spectacular element of the swing here was the decline in the Conservative vote (I don't know if that -37% is a record in itself?). If you compare with the similar sized swing in Dudley West, that was much more of a straigh exhange (Con -30% Lab +28%) So with the SNP not declining (obviously they will and would, but you can't extrapolate that from an English by-election) that equates to a swing of less than 10% from SNP to Labour, which doesn't yield all that much, because as you say.. The 37% beats the change from Christchurch, which I believe was the previous record? I thought it might have been Christchurch but was unsure. In that case it beats by fully 5% One bit of good news for robert1 perhaps.. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,759 
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 16, 2024 13:36:35 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since  I think a more workable writing style is to not start a topic with 'And', as being a conjunction it's not conjuction'ing with anything. Starting a sentence with 'And' can work if it's immediately following another sentence on the same topic.
I went to Scarborough on Tuesday. And, I've just remembered, on Wednesday as well.
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2024 13:42:46 GMT
If "So" is good enough as a way to start a sentence for Beowulf, it ought to be good enough for us. I'm a Grendel man myself. |
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2024 13:51:29 GMT
The Labour vote now (13,844) is very similar to the Labour vote in 2019 (13,737), so up 107. It would be interesting to know/guess how many of the 13,737 from 2019 are in the 13,844 this time, to help understand the proportion of 'new' votes Labour got in addition to those turning out for them again. At the same time, the Tory vote count dropped by 77% from 2019 to now! Indeed no real change. Labour got their vote out but not much more. Conservatives saw many sit on hands at home very sensibly in all the circumstances. I think it will be very different at the GE but still damaged and depressed. |
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Post by jakegb on Feb 16, 2024 14:10:30 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since I think a more workable writing style is to not start a topic with 'And', as being a conjunction it's not conjuction'ing with anything. Starting a sentence with 'And' can work if it's immediately following another sentence on the same topic.
I went to Scarborough on Tuesday. And, I've just remembered, on Wednesday as well.
Spot on. Though getting kids to understand that in school (I work as a teacher) is one heck of a mountain hike. Similar to the one currently facing the Tories  |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Feb 16, 2024 14:11:22 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since I was told the same, and still try and follow it. Not always successfully to be frank. |
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2024 14:13:05 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since It is a conjunction with what has gone before and deemed to be inappropriate to a fresh sentence and especially a fresh paragraph, because if still directly referring to previous matters, but without directly referencing them, perhaps the new sentence structure is a mistake? Like all rules it is only there as a guide to good practice and those with good style will break many rules is achieving that style. |
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2024 14:17:22 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since I think a more workable writing style is to not start a topic with 'And', as being a conjunction it's not conjuction'ing with anything. Starting a sentence with 'And' can work if it's immediately following another sentence on the same topic.
I went to Scarborough on Tuesday. And, I've just remembered, on Wednesday as well.
I went to Scarborough on Tuesday and Wednesday. Clarity and brevity. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Feb 16, 2024 14:18:21 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since But I was not told that, was told something else, can't remember what |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Feb 16, 2024 14:18:58 GMT
I think a more workable writing style is to not start a topic with 'And', as being a conjunction it's not conjuction'ing with anything. Starting a sentence with 'And' can work if it's immediately following another sentence on the same topic.
I went to Scarborough on Tuesday. And, I've just remembered, on Wednesday as well.
I went to Scarborough on Tuesday and Wednesday. Clarity and brevity. fair enough |
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Post by johnloony on Feb 16, 2024 14:20:15 GMT
The negative circumstances of this vacancy plus the near “double down” candidate selection didn’t help. Labour had more time to set up here than in Kingswood. And the Tory resignation there was on a claimed point of principle as opposed to being extracted from Parliament through a lengthy and very personal process. Although Skidmore resigning so close to a GE didn’t go down well with some I spoke to. The cost of an election to a council that is skint was mentioned by an ex-Tory now Labour voter. It is of course not paid for by the council (although that would probably not be known by an average member of the public). |
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 16, 2024 14:24:52 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since But I was not told that, was told something else, can't remember what Don't start a sentence/paragraph with 'but' as it is a conjunction in the manner of an 'and' : Also, don't end one with 'what', but do use appropriate punctuation, or at least some punctuation. |
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Post by johnloony on Feb 16, 2024 14:33:55 GMT
By-election swing on new boundaries  | Lab | 550 | | SNP | 40 | | LD | 31 | | Con | 8 | | PC | 1 | | Grn | 1 | | Speaker | 1 | | NI | 18 |
| | | Majority | 450 |
Oh flip. This is worse than I thought. It looks like Gavin Williamson has held his seat. |
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Post by batman on Feb 16, 2024 14:37:49 GMT
I remember being told at school, very sternly, that "you should never start a sentence with And". I never understood why, and happily disregarded said instruction at the time and ever since nothing wrong with sentences starting "and" in many circumstances, however it really irks me when sports bulletins which immediately follow the news headlines start with "and", e.g. "And England have made a good start in the 3rd Test after bowling India out finally for 445" to give a topical example. |
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Post by batman on Feb 16, 2024 14:39:21 GMT
Of course, and I commonly start a conversation with "Eh up, buddy, how are you?" Really? You astonish me. How frightfully American and chummy. it's always amusing when there's an American guest in an interview & the guest starts "HI HOW ARE YOU?" to the oh-so-Queen's/King's English interviewer who is always somewhat taken aback by such a sudden enquiry. |
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Post by johnloony on Feb 16, 2024 14:53:08 GMT
If "So" is good enough as a way to start a sentence for Beowulf, it ought to be good enough for us. Hwæt a fuss about noþing |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Feb 16, 2024 14:56:15 GMT
Writing is a representation of speech and punctuation serves to a large degree as a breathing marker, with a comma indicating a short pause and a full stop a longer one.
In speech, you will frequently take a longer pause for emphasis before continuing what is essentially the same thought as your earlier sentence. And if it's part of the same thought, "and" is a perfectly natural continuation.
Most grammar pedantry is people misapplying the rules of classical Latin to modern English and often in ways that didn't make very much sense in Latin either.
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Post by greenhert on Feb 16, 2024 15:07:24 GMT
Just to clarify regarding that record vote share drop of 37.6%- it is the worst for any major party in a UK parliamentary by-election, yes, and in fact it is 0.1% higher than Labour's vote share loss in the 1983 Bermondsey by-election. However the record for largest vote share loss is still held by the now defunct Independent Labour Party, whose vote share dropped by 51.3% in the Glasgow Camalchie by-election of 1948.
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