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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Dec 19, 2023 22:28:56 GMT
I see the usual suspects are taking this well. Do you remember all that "take back control" and "power away from Westminster" |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 19, 2023 22:31:22 GMT
If those 32,777 still wish him to be their MP, they will get their opportunity to make that clear, always assuming that he wishes to put himself forward again. I appreciate the urge to close ranks round a socially inadequate bully, but at a certain point you have to learn when to accept a loss. I like Bone it is true; but my driver here is a passionate dislike of the crass dreadful Act. |
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 19, 2023 22:36:08 GMT
Wouldn't put it past him. "Reform" being the party of people who don't want reform, they want to rewind. Actually, since names starting with 'Re-' seem to be in vogue in this part of the political spectrum, 'Rewind' would be a far more suitable name than either 'Reform' or 'Reclaim'; it would be a much better, or at least more honest, expression of their outlook and aims. I prefer The Retro Party to reset us us to respectability and reticence. It will be resplendent in glory and refresh the body politic. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Dec 19, 2023 22:43:23 GMT
OK, seeking to rise above the specific to the general, I get the desire to have a mechanism that permits MPs who have committed egregious acts to be removed or subjected to a confirmatory re-election. That, I get. The problem is that this mechanism does not do that and does other things it not ought to. If you have a marginal seat, then collecting four parking tickets will be quite enough to persuade 10% of the electorate that you ought to be recalled. By contrast, if you have a safe enough seat and a trenchant enough electorate, then ......well just have a look at Ian Paisley Jnr. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley_JrThis system not only does not work as intended it also works as not intended. On the other hand, Dok supports it. So on balance, should we throw the establishment a bone? |
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islington
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Post by islington on Dec 19, 2023 22:47:55 GMT
This is just off the top of my head, but (1) I take the point that 10% can seem a low bar; but (2) I'd like to keep some kind of recall system to focus MPs' minds; and (3) I'd particularly like to give voters some recourse if their MP switches parties.
So I'm pondering an increase in the requirement to 25% of the electorate, but at the same time removing the need for any particular trigger. Obviously in practice there would be some kind of precipitating event to motivate people to start up a petition, but it might be anything. For the MP to leave the party he was elected to support would provide an obvious motive for local voters to seek to force a byelection.
It's just a wild thought but I thought I'd give other posters the chance to tell me why it's a terrible idea.
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Post by uthacalthing on Dec 19, 2023 22:55:23 GMT
It is not a terrible idea. OK, in theory, it leaves every marginal constituency at the mercy of recall, but for one thing, that may not be a bad thing, and secondly, parties would quickly learn to not overegg the pudding.
There is a huge difference between 10% and 25% and it is not 15%. It is the difference between being able to mobilize the politically active and having to mobilize the politically inactive
I am not bothered if Bone goes down. Or come to that who he asked to go down.
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Dec 19, 2023 22:58:04 GMT
This is just off the top of my head, but (1) I take the point that 10% can seem a low bar; but (2) I'd like to keep some kind of recall system to focus MPs' minds; and (3) I'd particularly like to give voters some recourse if their MP switches parties. So I'm pondering an increase in the requirement to 25% of the electorate, but at the same time removing the need for any particular trigger. Obviously in practice there would be some kind of precipitating event to motivate people to start up a petition, but it might be anything. For the MP to leave the party he was elected to support would provide an obvious motive for local voters to seek to force a byelection. It's just a wild thought but I thought I'd give other posters the chance to tell me why it's a terrible idea. I'd be wary of removing the trigger to avoid types starting petitions for dubious reasons. Defection petitions would be interesting, effectively saying that if you're confident enough to defect, your confident enough to trust your constituency voters to stick with you. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Dec 19, 2023 23:03:15 GMT
Turnout at the December 1969 by election here exceeded 75%. Any particular reason why? Was the nation in crisis? |
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Post by matureleft on Dec 19, 2023 23:07:55 GMT
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Post by willpower3 on Dec 19, 2023 23:09:29 GMT
Turnout at the December 1969 by election here exceeded 75%. Any particular reason why? Was the nation in crisis? Turnout at parliamentary by-elections was often at general election levels before the 1990s or so. Indeed, in the Chesterfield by-election of 1984 (which put Tony Benn back into Parliament) it was actually higher than at the previous general election. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Dec 19, 2023 23:09:44 GMT
But MPs who know their constituency is safe as houses can, and will, get away with all sorts in-between elections and usually get away with it. Recall is a reminder that it's not the old days any more. It is a reminder that we live in a nasty, intrusive, mean-minded, vindictive, hell-hole of our own creation designed for and by miserable loser wimps who wish to destroy rather than create. Modern society is all about showing up, shutting down, bringing down and general destruction. And the proof is all about us with third rate MPs, hounded by the media and beset by idiotic rules and regulations that constrain all forms of human activity. Were the old days really any different? There were a lot of rules a hundred years ago too, many which we have since decided to jettison whether they be legislative or social/class convention enforced by the certainty of condemnation by society, family, the church, employer, landlord etc etc. I’m sure there were plenty of miserable people back then too. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Dec 19, 2023 23:10:14 GMT
I don't see how recall for MPs who defect could work. What would you do if a MP from party X starts consistently voting with party Y, but doesn't officially join them? You would just end up with MPs staying notionally independent rather than actually defecting.
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Post by uthacalthing on Dec 19, 2023 23:11:03 GMT
Defection petitions would be interesting, effectively saying that if you're confident enough to defect, your confident enough to trust your constituency voters to stick with you. and a powerful disincentive to such defections. Change UK might never have happened. I can see both the merits and demerits. As a former defector (OK at council level) would I have gone? Probably but my best guess is that the Tory party would not have mobilized a recall but then the SNP or Lib Dems might have. So how does that work, when an MP loses/resigns the whip, but his party does not expel him, because of a myriad of possible reasons, but other parties claim he has defected? He says he hasn't. His former party says he hasn't. While calling each other Cee Uou Next Tuesday Six months after I left, the party removed the leaders I had defected from, (Rt Hon Theresa May and Cllr Jim Gifford) but by then, I had burnt my boats in my own mind and was not coming back. Gifford joined the Aligned Independents and remained within the Tory-led coalition. All of this undermines the principle that people fail to understand that any elected member is a Representative, not a Delegate |
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Dec 19, 2023 23:11:10 GMT
If you have a marginal seat, then collecting four parking tickets will be quite enough to persuade 10% of the electorate that you ought to be recalled. By contrast, if you have a safe enough seat and a trenchant enough electorate, then ......well just have a look at Ian Paisley Jnr. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley_Jr Of the five seats to hold a recall petition to date Wellingborough was the safest so I’m sorry this comparison is far from watertight. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Dec 19, 2023 23:18:00 GMT
This is just off the top of my head, but (1) I take the point that 10% can seem a low bar; but (2) I'd like to keep some kind of recall system to focus MPs' minds; and (3) I'd particularly like to give voters some recourse if their MP switches parties. So I'm pondering an increase in the requirement to 25% of the electorate, but at the same time removing the need for any particular trigger. Obviously in practice there would be some kind of precipitating event to motivate people to start up a petition, but it might be anything. For the MP to leave the party he was elected to support would provide an obvious motive for local voters to seek to force a byelection. It's just a wild thought but I thought I'd give other posters the chance to tell me why it's a terrible idea. I'd be wary of removing the trigger to avoid types starting petitions for dubious reasons. Defection petitions would be interesting, effectively saying that if you're confident enough to defect, your confident enough to trust your constituency voters to stick with you. Certainly not in favour of removing the trigger even if the threshold were to be increased to 25%. The recall process should be the exception rather than the rule and should not be used by the electorate purely to express ‘buyer’s regret’ where the MP has not committed any misdemeanour. I remain open minded about a trigger for defections but fear that could a stir up a hornet’s nest. Would you also have a recall trigger where a party has suspended the whip from a naughty MP as well as where a well behaved MP has actively defected to another party? We all like a by-election but not that often please! |
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Post by uthacalthing on Dec 19, 2023 23:24:40 GMT
A point we are skirting around is that the allegation around Mr Bone is that he was a gay sex pest. I am beginning to wonder if we have a great enough sample size to examine the question of
1/Are gay men in positions of power more likely to be sex pests?
2/Are gay men in positions of power more likely to be the target of false accusations of sex pestery?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 19, 2023 23:37:00 GMT
If you have a marginal seat, then collecting four parking tickets will be quite enough to persuade 10% of the electorate that you ought to be recalled. By contrast, if you have a safe enough seat and a trenchant enough electorate, then ......well just have a look at Ian Paisley Jnr. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley_Jr Of the five seats to hold a recall petition to date Wellingborough was the safest so I’m sorry this comparison is far from watertight. Wellingborough was the lowest % recall signatures apart from North Antrim, but I would argue it was also the lowest profile. But with the exception of Peterborough (which was the first in GB and the most high profile), the other recall petitions have all been in the 9-19% range so it's not so exceptional. |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Dec 20, 2023 0:06:48 GMT
If I was in charge of the Labour campaign here, I'd be worried tonight that only 13% signed. That's a pretty low turnout in the circumstances. Will they be able to turn out enough people in a winter by-election? I'd be asking Santa for Peter Bone to stand.... In retrospect the 10% of the electorate threshold is actually quite low. Most (if not all?) recall petitions manage to succeed. I wonder how many MPs who have lost their seat through the recall process regret voting for that legislation and how many current MPs might be keen to raise the threshold in the future. With a 10% threashold it gives anybody who didn't vote for the winning candidate the power to kick out the winning candidate. |
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Post by mattbewilson on Dec 20, 2023 0:10:03 GMT
In retrospect the 10% of the electorate threshold is actually quite low. Most (if not all?) recall petitions manage to succeed. I wonder how many MPs who have lost their seat through the recall process regret voting for that legislation and how many current MPs might be keen to raise the threshold in the future. With a 10% threashold it gives anybody who didn't vote for the winning candidate the power to kick out the winning candidate. providing of course that a recall petition is required. People can't overturn the result just because they don't like them |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Dec 20, 2023 0:29:00 GMT
I don't see how recall for MPs who defect could work. What would you do if a MP from party X starts consistently voting with party Y, but doesn't officially join them? You would just end up with MPs staying notionally independent rather than actually defecting. Wouldn't it also result in the entire Liberal Party and SDP parliamentary groups facing recall in 1988 for changing their allegiance to the Social and Liberal Democrats?  |
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